From: JNugent73@mail.com 
  
 On 26/08/2025 06:58 PM, Norman Wells wrote: 
  
 > On 26/08/2025 16:17, JNugent wrote: 
 >> On 26/08/2025 10:34 AM, Norman Wells wrote: 
 >>> On 25/08/2025 17:30, JNugent wrote: 
 >>>> On 25/08/2025 04:11 PM, Norman Wells wrote: 
 >>>>> On 25/08/2025 14:54, JNugent wrote: 
 >>>>>> On 25/08/2025 01:27 PM, Norman Wells wrote: 
 >>>>>>> On 24/08/2025 23:53, JNugent wrote: 
 > 
 >>>> How do you say you know that the flag doesn't belong to the local 
 >>>> authority? 
 > 
 >>> You really don't have to be very bright to have a very good idea. 
 > 
 >> Is "a very good idea" enough? 
 >> Would it suffice as a defence against a Theft or Criminal Damage charge? 
 > 
 > That's a decision for the court of course, but I think so. 
  
 But you cannot know. 
  
 > The 
 > prosecution would have to show that it belonged to someone and their 
 > case would fail if it it couldn't establish that it belonged to the 
 > Council, because then the defence applies that no reasonable enquiries 
 > could be made to discover who does own it, if anyone. 
  
 But... why would you WANT to remove )and presumable destrot or othewise 
 dispse of) flags displayed on streetlamps and other street furniture? 
  
 Would it be just in order to be contrary? 
  
 >>>>> Were the local authority to appropriate it honestly, having regard to 
 >>>>> Section 2 of the Theft Act, it would then become the authority's 
 >>>>> property, just as it would become yours if you appropriated it.  Until 
 >>>>> such appropriation, however, it remains the property of whoever 
 >>>>> owned it before. 
 > 
 >>>> How do you know it wasn't theirs all along? 
 > 
 >>> Perhaps because I have a modicum of intelligence. 
 > 
 >> Or at least, a "very good idea"? 
 > 
 > We rely on our judgement every day of our lives. 
  
 Only up to a point. 
 > 
 >>>> Or alternatively, that the council hasn't given permission for the 
 >>>> display? 
 > 
 >>> Why do you think it has any power either to allow or forbid it? 
 > 
 >> See above. 
 > 
 > It only has any rights over it if it actually does own the flag. 
  
 Are all flags owned by councils? 
  
 > And 
 > I've used my experience and judgement to conclude that it most likely 
 > doesn't. 
  
 >>>>>> What is the on-the-spot discernible difference between a flag 
 >>>>>> attached with the council's permission and one without? 
 > 
 >>>>> Permission is irrelevant except as regards the question of whether the 
 >>>>> actual owner of the flag can be discovered by taking reasonable steps. 
 > 
 >>>> It is certainly *not* irrelevant to the qyestion of whether it has 
 >>>> been *abandoned*, which was an earlier claim. 
 > 
 >>> Abandonment is just one example of where the owner cannot be discovered 
 >>> by taking reasonable steps, which is what the law specifies. 
 > 
 >> And? 
 > 
 >>>>> In granting any permission (if ever), I think the Council would 
 >>>>> want to know who they are dealing with, and would then inevitably 
 >>>>> refuse it. 
 > 
 >>>> You know that for certain, do you? 
 > 
 >>> Of course.  No-one in their right mind would just say, assuming they had 
 >>> any power to prevent it anyway, oh just go ahead whoever you are, we'll 
 >>> take responsibility if anything goes wrong. 
 > 
 >> Ah... 
 > 
 >>>>>> In other words, what allows you to conclude that a flag in such a 
 >>>>>> position has been "abandoned"? 
 >>>>>> I'd say that is not a conclusion you could reach. 
 > 
 >>>>> If you think it is a reasonable step, you can always phone the Council 
 >>>>> to try to trace the owner.  But I think generally it's pretty obvious 
 >>>>> whether it's Council business or not and, if not, there are no 
 >>>>> reasonable steps you can take to discover the owner. 
 > 
 >>>> Ringing the council would be a reasonable step. 
 > 
 >>> Not if it doesn't have any authority over it. 
  
 How could you know that without making reasonable enquiries? 
  
 >> A passer by does not have that knowledge, hence the necessity of 
 >> contacting the council. 
 > 
 > I'm commenting as a passer-by actually, and I'm saying it's highly 
 > unlikely to have any such authority. 
  
 But HOW do you say you know that? 
  
 >> I really cannot believe that you advocate theft or criminal damage of 
 >> the property of others. But it's what you are doing. 
 > 
 > I've told you why it wouldn't be theft.  What criminal damage are you 
 > now alleging?  Of what, how, and who by? 
  
 Of the flags or their moorings. 
  
 >> FTAOD, I wpuld never dream of appropriating any street decoration, 
 >> flag or any other symbol. Not even a Hamas flag. I would leave it to 
 >> the authorities responsible (to the extent that anyone has that 
  
 [continued in next message] 
  
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