XPost: uk.politics.misc, uk.d-i-y, uk.radio.amateur 
 From: tims_new_home@yahoo.com 
  
 "Roger Hayter"  wrote in message 
 news:1ofes9s.2zqsr03jk5p9N%roger@hayter.org... 
 > Pamela  wrote: 
 > 
 >> On 19:07  13 Oct 2019, Norman Wells  wrote: 
 >> 
 >> > On 13/10/2019 17:16, Pamela wrote: 
 >> >> On 13:49  13 Oct 2019, "Dave Plowman (News)"  
 >> >> wrote: 
 >> >> 
 >> >>> In article <0001HW.23533798000B6E74700000BBC2EF@news.giganews.com>, 
 >> >>>     Keema's Nan  wrote: 
 >> >>>>> I see your mistake. You think the referendum was a football match 
 >> >>>>> with winner takes all. In fact, the vote was more or less evenly 
 >> >>>>> split and MPs will take that into account. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> Ok, but not quite evenly split though, was it? 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> No. It was approximately 1/3rd. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>>> 
 >> >>>>> 
 >> >>>>> A second referendum will serve to show Parliament if the original 
 >> >>>>> split has been preserved after voters have seen what Brexit really 
 >> >>>>> looks like. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> No one can see what Brexit looks like until they have experienced 
 >> >>>> it. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> Which could be too late for many jobs based on free trade with the 
 >> >>> EU. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> All we have, is what bullshitters tell us Brexit will be like. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> I certainly remember being told how easy it would be to get a new 
 >> >>> deal 
 >> >>> with the EU giving us all we wanted. Since they need us more than we 
 >> >>> need them. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> If we are allowed a few years of Brexit and then have a referendum 
 >> >>>> based on 'stay out' or 're-join', that would be sensible. But common 
 >> >>>> sense is what the remain-filled UK establishment do not possess. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> The nest few years will be spend sorting out just what sort of deal 
 >> >>> we 
 >> >>> end up with in detail. Any agreement now is simply a starting point. 
 >> >>> And if we leave without one, those negotiations will simply take 
 >> >>> longer. A lot longer. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> How true. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> In fact, for many leavers, Brexit has become an end it itself. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> Brexit serves no useful purpose.  However, fanatical leavers have 
 >> >> nailed their colours to its mast and now insist we leave to satisfy 
 >> >> their sense of pride. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> Boris's "Let's get Brexit done" is based on the totally false premise 
 >> >> that it will be over when we leave. 
 >> > 
 >> > It's actually drawing a line that will enable discussions on trade, 
 >> > which you seem concerned about, actually to start.  We haven't had 
 >> > *any* 
 >> > so far.  We can't until we have left. 
 >> 
 >> What a mess. 
 > 
 > I don't think that particular part of it is a mess at all. 
 > International discussions and hugely disruptive changes of status are 
 > always going to take a long time.   And it seems obvious to me that the 
 > EU cannot negotiate new trade terms with us until we have actually left; 
 > after all, it is now clear to everyone, and probably was always  obvious 
 > to the EU officials, that unitil we actually leave we could withdraw our 
 > Article 50 notification at a ny time.  So all the May deal was is a 
 > transitional arrangement while we negotiate.   That should be no 
 > problem, no reasonable person could have thought that it could have been 
 > done quicker without unnecessary disruption. 
 > 
 > The real problem with the May deal is not the delay, or even the content 
 > of the transitional arrangements, it is what to do about Ireland. 
 > Perhaps this is our fault for allowing the Unionist population to 
 > dictate partition in 1923.  But is a real mutual problem for the EU and 
 > us because of Brexit.   And blaming the EU for it is misdirected. 
  
 I'm not blaming the EU for the problem 
  
 But I do for their negotiation of it. 
  
 They should say, this is a problem that we have to solve and sit around the 
 table with us whilst we do so 
  
 instead that say "this is your problem to solve and we are not sitting down 
 to talk to you about it until you have a 100% workable solution that can be 
 implemented tomorrow" - which by definition excludes any technological 
 solution and only leaves their stitch up of NI staying in the SM and CU. 
  
 tim 
  
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