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On 14/02/2024 11:39, Bob Latham wrote:
> In article ,
> The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 13/02/2024 21:32, Bob Latham wrote:
>>> Right so there is a video that shows presidents, prime ministers
>>> doctors and professors all claiming they didn't say it stopped you
>>> getting covid. Then the video goes on to show them all saying exactly
>>> that.
>
>> Again, you are confusing facts with narratives.
>
>> And expecting politicians to tell the complicated truth, which at
>> that point they don't even know, rather than a simple narrative
>> they think the plebs will understand.
>
>> You are inferring far too much from human weakness. And expecting
>> far too much from 'experts'
>
>> I don't know what you are actually referring too, but at leats in
>> my personal memory all I saw was a lot of politicians in a panic,
>> and a lot of epidemioligsts with some extremely sketchy models,
>> all of which said (in the case of the UK), that if something
>> wasn't done, deaths were likely to exceed 50,000, and the peak
>> rate of the sperad would completely overwhelm the hospitals.
>
> Of all the people to write something like that you were the last I
> expected. I know you are aware that main stream media pushes
> propaganda not truth, I know you are.
>
I never said that was the truth, I said that is what they said.
But it made sense to me. So, pro tem, I accepted it with reservations.
And because I have a lot of life threatening conditions and spent a lot
of time in and out of hospital, I talked to the staff, and it was not a
complete lie.
> Surely you remember that we had professors of serious note like
> Sunetra Gupta who were completely shut out of the conversation
> because politicians had decided what the truth was going to be and
> only allowed doctors who agreed with the narrative to speak. Perhaps
> you were unaware of the group that formed of viral experts from
> across the globe offering an alternative view which was shut out.
>
If they were shut out, how could I become aware?.
Look, I really wasn't that *interested*. There are always groups of
people with views that they hope will bring them 15 minutes of fame and
a career on the Telly.
As I recall, and I dint pay much attention at the time, the choice was
initially between lockdown and a massive epidemic culling the herd and
leaving the rest with immunity. With an NHS in crisis and unable to
cope, and a potential death rate up to half a million.
My cardiologist told me 'even if I wanted to, I cant send you to
Papworth, because the open heart surgery equipment that keeps patients
alive when they have stopped breathing and their hearts have stopped, is
fully in use keeping COVID patients alive'.
Why would he lie?
> The models were from that well known Prof Neil Ferguson otherwise
> know as pants down because he didn't believe his own model when it
> came to his sexual desires and broke the rules.
>
Sure, the model detailed constants were not known, but the shape of the
curves was.
And if we bothered to derogate anyone who gets his end away out of hours
we wouldn't have anyone left..
> This man is and was at the time notorious for massive exaggeration of
> deaths from every virus that got near us. He had form for this kind
> of nonsense and then some. He was always massively WRONG. But his
> ridiculous models were very useful for the narrative.
In fact as I recall he said 'if we don't lock down we may get as many as
50,000 excess deaths' In fact we ended up with 150,000
>
> We both know from ACC how models only reflect the opinion or desire
> of their creator, they are propaganda tools, nothing more.
>
No, they are not 'nothing more'. They are best guesses. at best. Only
when serious money is involved do they become mere marketing tools, as
with EcoBollox™
> You also seem unaware that many deaths attributed to covid were
> really from other things like the end of life drug, I'd have to look
> the name given to many elderly in care homes. Or that ventilators
> were in themselves the cause of deaths.
>
Again you are doing the ArtStudent thing, saying 'dying with, isn't the
same as dying of'
The scientific realty is that when we look at average annual death
rates, for whatever reason, there were around 150,000 more deaths than
expected during covid.
It's like my friend, he isn't dying of Covid, he is just dying. But if
he hadn't had Covid he might have lasted another couple of years.
Another friends wife didn't due strictly of motor neurone disease, she
died when she stopped breathing. Because her nervous system stopped
telling her lungs what to do. Or because she was given too much
medication (or just enough)
>
> But congratulations. I've never seen such an expert job of air
> brushing inconvenient truths.
>
> Surprisingly you too seem to be a victim of the media.
>
> No point in arguing further.
>
Bob, I think you are in denial., Its you that are the victim here.
You haven't faced up to the truth that no one knew then and no one knows
even now what was the best course of action.
You claim you do? No way pal. You just chose to believe in one group and
simply 'cancel' the mainstream.
I understand that, but its not worthy of you. You OUGHT to have gone
into stuff way more deeply if you cared enough.
I didn't listen to politicians. I listened to the people working in the
NHS. I looked at data published by the NHS.
And I used what I know of modelling and epidemiology to get at least a
basic understanding of the issues, and I used my cynicism about the
competence and expertise of politicians and experts to offset what they
said into some semblance of a 'probable truth'.
I expect experts to be in many cases at least partially wrong., They
cant know, even if they know better. I expect politicians to lie.
On the other hand if I routinely believed the doctors were lying to me,
I think I would be dead already. Doctors, mostly tell the truth. Why
not? I have to trust them . They are not paid to lie, and they gain
nothing by it.
And they told me the crisis was real. People were dying of Covid. In
the ward at the back. 70 a week.
We can argue about the policy, we may argue about the efficacy or
otherwise of vaccines, but the facts as I understand them to be,were not
for me what the BBC said, it was that back then in that spring, 70
people a month were dying of Covid, Papworth was closed to all but
emergency cases, and now they are not. And that deaths from vaccine side
effects are *not* running at 70 per month in my local hospital.
We cant know the actual truth. Its not that people are hiding it from
you, its that they simply do not themselves know.
Life is like that. We make inadequate decisions based on insufficient
data, and we muddle through, or we die.
Your mistake is to *believe* in one side or the other.
I didn't. I asked around people who actually knew more, and based my
assumptions on that,. knowing full well that they were assumptions. Well
I've been living on borrowed time for years anyway, I roll the dice and
try to make decisions based on best probabilities.
I discovered that this is in fact taught as combat tactics in the
British Army. How to make decisions in the fog of war.
Define your objectives. In this case personal survival
Do your reconnaissance and base your initial plan on what you find, not
on what you believe to be the case. And on your available resources. I
underwent lockdown and vaccines. I survived.
Then implement your battle plan, but be prepared to withdraw from
engagement or modify it the moment it becomes clear it wasn't the best
plan. I didn't stay out of hospital, because i needed emergency
treatment. The hospital was *empty*. But I survived, though I might have
caught some lung infection. My lungs are shot anyway. That's what I will
die of, ultimately. Probably.
I didn't stay at home and get food delivered. I went to the supermarket.
Sometimes I got a chest infection afterwards. But it was better for my
mental state to at leats talk to someone than sit alone and talk to no
one. I survived.
I didn't believe in masks but wore them anyway. If it makes people feel
better, it cost me nothing.
I believed on balance that the risks of vaccination were outweighed by
the benefits. I got them all. Made made me feel ill. I've had since
covid, at least three COVID vaccinations - lost count - three influenza
shots, two pneumonia shots... two heart attacks...mild, pleurisy, and
now apparently I have leukemia. And COPD. Of course.
The only one I blame on Covid was the pleurisy, as I was in hospital for
kidney stones and they kept the windows open and I froze almost to
death, came home and great, went down with pleurisy.
Its all about making the best decisions you can at the time on the
information you have. And not being afraid to change your mind if more
information comes along.
I mean I used to believe in climate change too, until I started studying
the issues.
Then I changed my mind. The data that I came across indicated it was
simply a minor factor, but there was a huge amount of money to be made
from the eco-narrative and a huge amount of damage to be done to the
West by supporting the people who promoted it.
And someone wanted that.
In the end Bob, I have learnt to live cheerfully with the uncertainty of
knowing nothing for sure, except for the the sure and certain knowledge
that no other fucker knows for sure either. But I probably know more
than most, because I have spent time trying to find out.
You can argue your case till the cows come home, but in the end, I
probably only care that my battle plans to achieve my strategic
objective of lasting another 5 years seem to be working.
And all my experience tells me that by and large the medical profession
do not indulge in lies, unless they have motives outside of medicine to
e.g. become famous, but that media and the politicians *always* lie,
except by accident, and anyone who expects they shouldn't needs to grow up.
> Bob.
>
--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of
an airplane.”
Dennis Miller
--- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05
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