From: stephen@sprunk.org   
      
   On 21-May-14 09:07, Adam H. Kerman wrote:   
   > Stephen Sprunk  wrote:   
   >> On 20-May-14 22:29, Adam H. Kerman wrote:   
   >>> Stephen Sprunk  wrote:   
   >>>> The PFC, which is a flat amount per user levied by and   
   >>>> collected by the airport, is a user fee.   
   >>>   
   >>> You've got conklin disease and should be ashamed of yourself.   
   >>> It's not a user fee. It's a tax. Passengers don't consume   
   >>> airport resources in proportion to the charge they've paid. What   
   >>> do you think it represents, a washroom attendant fee? Seat   
   >>> rental?   
   >>>   
   >>> No one goes to an airport to see the damn airport. They go to   
   >>> travel. Airlines and concessions should pay rental and that   
   >>> should be high enough to operate the airport and retire bonds. If   
   >>> it's not, something's wrong.   
   >>   
   >> A single charge only works if there is one dimension to   
   >> consumption, but an airport (or train station, etc.) has multiple   
   >> dimensions, which is why the airlines pay per-gate fees,   
   >> per-landing fees and per-passenger fees.   
   >   
   > Gate fees and landing fees certainly are user charges for exclusive   
   > use of a resource during a particular period. My objection has been   
   > to the traditional failure to charge based on high demand at 5 pm.   
      
   I have previously stated I'd prefer to auction runway slots, and   
   presumably that would result in higher prices during peak hours rather   
   than the flat fees currently charged.   
      
   Gate fees are a bit different since, at least as things are currently   
   organized, airlines can't easily share a gate; but I would still like to   
   see gates auctioned as well.   
      
   > Per passenger charges, well, a passenger consumes a resource at the   
   > airport exclusively, but it's so trivial that attempting to measure   
   > it an seek reimbursement isn't worthwhile.   
      
   I disagree; it's a material expense, and while a single passenger is not   
   an issue, thousands of passengers certainly are, and you can divide   
   their total cost by their total number to get a per-passenger fee.   
      
   > At O'Hare, which has the world's longest walks to gates,   
      
   Really?  I recall ORY being far worse, and plenty of others that are   
   roughly as bad as ORD, probably some of them being slightly worse.   
      
   >> Think about it.  If an airline rents a gate for 10pax/day, that   
   >> puts a much lower load on the terminal facility than the same   
   >> airline renting the same gate for 1000pax/day, so should they   
   >> should pay the same in both cases?   
   >   
   > I think those commuter airlines are connecting flights.   
      
   At the hub end, sure, but they're still carrying a tiny number of   
   passengers compared to, say, a B747 or A380 that pays the same gate   
   rental fee.   
      
   Just last weekend I flew to/from a small regional airport (COU) that has   
   four flights per day (two to DFW, two to ORD) on a single gate; that   
   works fine when the planes only hold ~20 passengers and are usually half   
   empty, but try to land even a B737 there and you'd violate fire code   
   trying to stuff that many people in the terminal building.  There   
   certainly isn't enough seating, baggage handling capacity, restroom   
   capacity, etc. to deal with that many people.  A per-passenger fee   
   solves that by giving the airport revenue to expand the terminal.   
      
   > Your extreme   
   > example would be for general aviation at major airports. There's   
   > still a bit of that, but they discourage it. As far as I know,   
   > passengers wouldn't use the main passenger terminals for that but   
   > would go to the separate general aviation facility, and those flights   
   > wouldn't be charged gate fees. Landing fees would be comparable.   
      
   All correct, but not what I was talking about.   
      
   > I won't ask how you think you'd board a Lear jet from a jetway.   
      
   Regional jets aren't much bigger than modern corporate jets, but the   
   former can board from a jetway just fine.  It's a little trickier for   
   models with built-in stairs than it is for ones without, but it's done   
   every day.   
      
   >> That airlines pass one part of their rent on to passengers as a   
   >> separate line item while they include the others in the base fare   
   >> is immaterial to the multi-dimensional nature of the costs and   
   >> fees.   
   >   
   > It's a charge from the airport, not the airline, Stephen.   
      
   And the airlines pass on that charge to the passengers, as I said.   
      
   >> I'm not claiming PFCs are perfect, but no user fee ever is; one can   
   >> find plenty of problems with tolled highways, for instance, but   
   >> that doesn't mean we should get rid of tolls and charge every car   
   >> owner an annual rent that doesn't vary with their usage at all.   
   >   
   > That absurd statement indicates utter cluelessness as to how user   
   > charges should be set. Have you ever heard of the concept of demand?   
      
   Of course I have.   
      
   FYI, demand-based tolls exist.   
      
   S   
      
   --   
   Stephen Sprunk         "God does not play dice."  --Albert Einstein   
   CCIE #3723         "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the   
   K5SSS        dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking   
      
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