From: ahk@chinet.com   
      
   John Levine  wrote:   
      
   >>The system didn't have the cost and expense of manufacturing and   
   >>distributing the fare media. All the passenger had to do was remember   
   >>to use the same credit card each time.   
      
   >That's how the Oyster system in London works.  When I was there last   
   >year, I used my US issued Amex card to tap in and out, and it billed   
   >me once a day for whatever I used.   
      
   The important feature of the Phoenix system is that it billed passengers   
   the lowest combination of fares, so that that the passenger didn't have   
   to decide to purchase a pass. That's not what you're describing.   
      
   >As to why Metrocards are obsolete, partly it's that tap card readers   
   >have a lot fewer moving parts than magstripe readers and so are more   
   >reliable and cheaper to maintain.  But mostly it's that contactless   
   >cards can handle much more complex fare systems.   
      
   Neither of these statements are characteristics of either system. It   
   just depends on design. The faregates don't have to be full-insertion to   
   read magnetic stripes; that was just a choice. For years before Chicago   
   had the Cubic gates, it had simple swipe readers that didn't require   
   full insertion. The parts were cheap and easy to replace. Pace has   
   bus fareboxes with built-in swipe readers that are still being used. These   
   fareboxes are close to 25 years old. The swipe readers haven't been used   
   in some time but still work.   
      
   The swipe readers were read only, but work great with passes as passes   
   just require an expiration date; they were purchased for use with passes.   
      
   As far as complex transactions, given that the stripes get written to,   
   your position is unreasonable that any complex fare transaction couldn't   
   be encoded.   
      
   >The Clipper card in San Francisco works on 20 different transit   
   >systems in the bay area, most of which have passes and discounted   
   >credit that can be loaded onto your card in addition to the cash   
   >credit.   
      
   So what? Seattle's works with transit services provided on around the   
   same number of systems.   
      
   It's not actually necessary to write anything to fare media. These can   
   all be handled with back office transactions, with the card itself   
   used for nothing more than account ID.   
      
   >When you tap the card it automatically uses whatever is cheapest, and   
   >also can deal with special cases like a small discount you get when   
   >transferring between BART and Muni in downtown San Francisco.  It's not   
   >perfect, e.g. it doesn't do daily fare capping on Caltrain (you need to   
   >get a paper day pass from a machine for that) but it's way better than   
   >the tokens and magstripe cards and paper tickets it replaced.   
      
   It's been pointed out that Germany had bus fare boxes decades ago that   
   sold any fare in a region of the country, all done with paper.   
      
   If you can't understand how a magnetic stripe ticketing system could   
   be made to work with a variety of fares from multiple agencies, including   
   passes and discounts, you've just not put adequate thought into it.   
      
   You're making it sound like no fare convenience existed until extremely   
   recently, yet anyone could bring to your attention numerous historical   
   examples.   
      
   >The MTA's RFP looks pretty sensible.  They want it to use regular bank   
   >cards and NFC smartphones as well as MTA issued cards, they want a   
   >central system that manages the fares connected by a private network   
   >to all of the fare machines and gates, and as much as possible they   
   >want to use stuff available off the shelf in the US.  They want   
   >someone who can integrate the parts, not someone with an all-in-one   
   >solution which they realize doesn't exist.   
      
   It sounds like it's based on Cubic's Ventra, which we have in Chicago.   
   The Ventra card is NFC, not EMV. The vendor interested in making it   
   work with cell phone chips dropped out or went bankrupt, so it turned   
   out there never was a valid reason for going with NFC.   
      
   I don't understand why smart phones went with a different chip standard,   
   considering they wanted to get into the payment business. I thought EMV   
   was the older standard.   
      
   >If they don't screw up, which I realize is a big if,   
      
   Implementation here in Chicago was extremely painful.   
      
   >it should also be able to handle tickets for all of the MTA's commuter   
   >railroards and politics permitting, there's no reason it can't handle   
   >PATH and NJ Transit, too.   
      
   I'm sure they're not participating in the RFP.   
      
   NICTD/CSS&SB has a far more flexible ticketing system than Metra, sigh.   
   Every time Metra does something, they forget to ask NICTD to participate.   
      
   Cubic would very much like to get onto commuter rail. They think all   
   conductors should have hand-held ticket devices. They're expensive and   
   the fare transaction takes longer, and radio telemetry isn't always   
   ideal.   
      
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