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NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 08:47:57 -0600
Newsgroups: alt.comp.freeware,alt.os.linux.ubuntu
From: Topaz_Crow
Subject: Re: My ubuntu experience
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On Sun, 21 Jan 2007 12:35:36 GMT, bigjon wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 01:09:32 +1300, Philip wrote:
>
>> Topaz_Crow wrote:
>>> On Fri, 19 Jan 2007 13:48:11 +0100, Michel Firholz
wrote:
>>>> Topaz_Crow wrote:
>>>>> You will
>>>>> never be able to harness the full power available on the CLI with GUI
>>>>> apps.
>>>>>
>>>> "nobody would ever need more than 640KBytes Ram"
>>>> was someone of the rookies asking for help willing to "harness the full
>>>> power of Linux", or were them just asking to solve a small problem?
>>>
>>> Not a good analogy You can do much more with much less effort on the
>>> command line. In this case the GUI would be the 640K. :)
>>>
>>> Well, maybe this small problem is much easier to fix by giving someone
>>> a command line way of doing it than telling them how to wade through
>>> GUI menus. This is exactly the case much of the time.
>>>
>>>>> It does not hurt to introduce newbies to a little CLI action
>>>>> from time to time.
>>>>>
>>>> how do you know, what is supposed to hurt them?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Because the CLI is a good thing. It only helps. It does not harm. Not
>>> using the CLI in Linux is like, I don't know, not using the start
>>> menu in Windows. It's a tool that makes life easier if someone learns
>>> to use it. And it's not that hard if you get over the phobia.
>>>
>>>>> So giving a little help with command line actions is a little
>>>>> introduction that will not hurt at all but may help a lot.
>>>>>
>>>> sure, if they have been asking for!
>>>
>>> They are asking to learn Linux. They are going to have to get over the
>>> fact that it's not Windows and learn to use Linux of which a big part
>>> of is the CLI. And this junk about the CLI being hard is just that,
>>> junk. It's not hard if one makes the effort and it will teach them much
>>> more about what the GUI is doing than only using the GUI.
>>>
>> The command line is wonderful, stimulating, perhaps even sexy. I use it
>> constantly on my Ubuntu machines (not this borrowed pooter, tho). And
>> I'm not suggesting we lose it, just that we stop saying to potentil
>> newcomers tht it's essential to their purpose. It isn't.
>>
>> New users are not attracted by being told they must type
>>
>> snurge/xvgtr -i -P -n
>>
>> instead of just clicking on an icon.
>>
>> Every time we say that to a newcomer, we are saying: Hey, it's just like
>> they keep saying. Windows IS easier than Linux.
>>
>> Do you recall those tv ads for the early Macs that showed someone at an
>> MSDOS machine typing
>>
>> c:\programs\snicketyboo\getup.com
>>
>> and then showed the owner of the Mac Classic just clicking his
>> single-button mouse on the image. Sold a fair few Macs, that did.
>>
>> Users WANT it easy. That's why cars don't have a spark advance/retard
>> lever any more and don't demand you double de-clutch to change down a
>> gear. It's why phones don't have rotary dials but do have memories. Why
>> your toastr pops up the toast before it's burnt.
>>
>> Computers, even ones running Ubuntu, are a commodity appliance, and so
>> long as we let ourselves get diverted from meeting that user expectation
>> we condemn ourselves to the fringes of the computer world.
>>
>> Microsoft's Vista presents Ubuntu with a huge opportunity to push istelf
>> as the upgrade path from Windows XP. Let's not fudge it.
This is where some will disagree with you. Are we trying to turn Linux
into a dumbed down free version of Windows just for the sake of a few
users? Why must Linux developers bend over backwards for people who
don't want Linux. These people don't want Linux. They want Windows
without the Windows problems. There is no such thing and hopefully
will never be unless it comes out of MS. I like Linux for what it is.
Less problems than Windows and more power and control.
>
> 100% in agreement.
>
> _Newbies_ not only want it, but if the linux _community_ want newbies to
> try out and switch to Linux it has to be easier - or as easy - as Windows
> to navigate the basic controls.
OK, the Linux developers must dumb down the OS just to meet the wants
of a few lazy or scared newbies. Is this a good thing. I've mixed
feelings on this. Many people, Like yourself are making great efforts
to learn and you don't seem to be too scared to experiment with the
CLI. So there is no problem then.
I don't necessarily disagree with the effort to make a newbie friendly
distro. But how far is it going to go. People are going to complain
that it's not easy enough even if it were exactly like Windows. I just
fixed a Windows computer for a friend who has had it for years and
still don't know the difference between a hard drive and memory. He
thinks all pop-ups are viruses and hacker attacks. Can we make Linux
user friendly enough for these folks? Do we really want to? Does it
matter if Linux becomes No. 1?
There comes a point where if people want *better* they must learn how
to use the *better* option. If they want easier, stick with what they
know and pay people to keep it going.
If one wants a faster car, one must learn to drive it. If one wants a
race car, you can't expect the manufacture to make it so that it
rides like your Cadillac just to please the people who don't want to
learn how to handle it.
>
> My wife and kids are not interested in system controls, that's my job. All
> they want is to click their favourite apps open and use them... Getting a
> ten year old to understand a command line is nigh on impossible!
My eight year old is starting to delve into it. My family uses Linux
with no problems. Of course my wife only uses the command line if I
tell here how to. But she doesn't have a problem on these occasions.
You are making a great effort to learn to use Linux and chose a good
starting point with Ubuntu. Keep it up and you will be happy with your
choice. Eventually, you may end up being the one giving CLI commands
to help.
> I have used Ubuntu for four days now, although I am on the old family XP
> machine today, and find that after a few first day wobbles, the advice here
> has helped me to actually use the controls (albeit without the terminal
> much yet).
>
> Respect to those that use the terminal for everything, but it's not for me,
This is just a preference. It doesn't mean they are smarter, just that
they chose to learn to use the CLI because they prefer it. I use
whatever I find easier to use at the time.
If you asked me to edit a photo file in the Gimp, I would be
completely lost. Not because it's hard, but because I'm not familiar
with it. Since I don't do photo editing, I have not found the need to
learn to use it. However, if I did learn how to use it, I may find
myself using it more than I do now. Because it may prove to be more
handy than I realize.
> and Ubuntu allows me to point and click so far.
>
> Purely with point and click, I have so far achieved:
> Internet connection.
> installed 3D video drivers.
> install/uninstall apps.
> create launchers on the desktop for the kids apps.
> Instant Chat (msn-ish)
> organise the taskbars and drawers.
> send email.
> read newsgroups.
> Write and edit HTML.
> Update my own website via FTP.
> watch live streams via realplayer.
> use interactive web media - youtube etc.
> Watch DVD films
>
> and most importantly impress the technophobic wife!
There will come a time when you will be familiar enough with the
system to want to start doing other things. Maybe automate some
everyday tasks you do. Something like that. CLI knowledge will be most
helpful.
Not saying it's necessary, just helpful. But eventually, depending on
how you end up using the system it may become necessary. The point is
to not be scared of it. It's just another tool at your disposal.
--
Topaz Crow
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Reply to alt.anonymous.messages Subject: ATTN: Topaz Crow
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