REPLY: 1:104/117 63e2c0a4   
   MSGID: 3:633/267 63e79c0a   
   CHRS: LATIN-1 2   
   TZUTC: 1100   
   TID: hpt/fbsd 1.9.0-cur 2021-04-15   
   On 2023-02-07 14:09:10, Vitaliy Aksyonov (1:104/117) wrote to andrew clarke:   
      
    VA>>> MS provides free VS community edition. I don't see any reasons   
    VA>>> why can't it be used.   
    ac>> I'd forgotten about the community edition.   
      
    VA> But it's used for windows builds. Need to be supported too. Windows is   
    VA> not very developer-friendly system. I like Unix-style systems much more   
    VA> for development.   
      
   I had a quick look at Visual Studio 2022 Community today. I was pleasantly   
   surprised that a Microsoft account login was no longer mandatory to use the VS   
   Community IDE. On first launch you can now click "Skip for now" at the login   
   screen. I don't know yet if the IDE's idea of "for now" means "for 30 days" or   
   "in perpetuity" but it's a nice change.   
      
   I assume that was done on purpose, since the IDE's restrictions don't apply if   
   all you need are the MSVC command-line tools, eg. to build GoldED.   
      
   Then if you still want an IDE you can use VSCode instead, which doesn't   
   require a Microsoft login. In many ways VSCode is superior anyway, except   
   maybe if you're doing WinForms development in C#.   
      
    ac>> I suppose you could use that, though the modern versions of VS are   
    ac>> kind of scary. I mean a 10+ GB download just to compile "Hello   
    ac>> world" in C is a bit excessive. The download is bigger than any   
    ac>> regular Linux distro. Just for the IDE and C/C++ compiler.   
      
    VA> That is true. I don't know what do they put there. Maybe crypto miner?   
    VA> ;)   
      
   Ah, of course. :)   
      
   Incredibly the full offline download of VS 2022 Community (en-US language   
   only) totals 40 GB.   
      
   Installing basic C++ and C# development tools "only" requires about 12 GB   
   though.   
      
    ac>> It's strange Microsoft never released a free version of MSVC with   
    ac>> just the compiler, header files and libraries but without the IDE.   
    ac>> Borland did that in 2000, 23 years ago! I think it even had STL   
    ac>> support.   
      
    VA> Who knows, why? Probably there is some secret optimizations. Or maybe   
    VA> code is so ugly, that they shy to show it to wide public. :D   
      
   Well I wasn't suggesting they open-source it. Just release a free version of   
   VS Community but with only the command-line tools. Or just make it an option   
   to not install the IDE when you install VS Community.   
      
   Back in 2005 Microsoft released the Windows Server 2003 DDK Tools for free.   
   That was essentially a full version of MSVC from around 2003, minus the IDE.   
   However the C & C++ standard libraries were also deliberately excluded, so the   
   only apps you could realistically build were those that exclusively used Win32   
   API calls. It was really intended for driver development, though that also   
   meant if you were an OEM you couldn't easily build software with it to   
   configure your own drivers. Curiously, they still have it available for   
   download.   
      
    VA> BTW, their STL implementation was very bad performance wise when they   
    VA> introduced VS2015. They focused on following standard even with   
    VA> performance penalty. Our company stayed on STLPort for long time   
    VA> because of that.   
      
   It's good you had an alternative.   
      
   I don't know if it would help the STL but the Windows port of Clang might have   
   better performance than the MSVC compiler. Microsoft even include Clang as an   
   optional feature with VS2022, though you can also download the latest version   
   from GitHub.   
      
    VA>>> That's a good question. Main concern here is that FidoNet is   
    VA>>> mostly retro hobby and people may want to run it on old computers   
    VA>>> and old OSes.   
    ac>> Well they can still run the older retro versions.   
      
    VA> That is true. But what if they want to use new features or fix some   
    VA> nasty bugs? The more master evolves - the harder would be to backport   
    VA> such changes. From other side - that decision will be made sooner or   
    VA> later. Then nice features like smart pointers or other may be used.   
      
   I don't know. Backporting fixes typically isn't that difficult, provided you   
   have a period-correct C/C++ compiler. (This is why I'm not so fond of relying   
   on MSVC for the Windows version, since they keep removing their older versions   
   from their web site. You used to be able to freely download Visual Studio   
   Express 2008, which runs like lightning on a modern PC with an SSD.)   
      
   Most of the truly nasty bugs in Fido software that's still being used were   
   fixed years ago with Y2K patches. Software like GoldED may have plenty of   
   issues but none of them are serious. At least not to my knowledge. There may   
   be a few Year 2038 bugs in Fidonet software in the future but I don't   
   anticipate too many problems.   
      
   Retro folks still wanting to run BBS software under DOS typically want to run   
   old versions of things and won't be very interested in new features.   
      
   Then there are retro folks (like us) who prefer to use Linux, MacOS or FreeBSD   
   terminals, and the latest version of GoldED or whatever.   
      
   Of course, there is some overlap. :)   
      
   --- GoldED+/BSD 1.1.5-b20230205   
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