MSGID: 2:221/6.0 5ea749e2
REPLY: 2:221/6.0 5ea5879c
PID: SmapiNNTPd/Linux/IPv6 1.3 20200418
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CHRS: IBMPC 2
TZUTC: 0300
TID: hpt/lnx 1.9.0-cur 2020-04-15
Alexander Koryagin:
> AS> I fear you are misusing terms again. Nobody put Moscow on
> AS> quarantine.
>
>
> What is quarantine according to you?
As I understand their usage in Russia:
Quarratine: Self-isolation:
Mandatory Practically voluntary
Enforced Weekly controlled
Absolute Partial
> AS>>> How do you know that? In my opinion, without the
> AS>>> quarrantine and self-isolation the figures whould have
> AS>>> been even worse.
>
> AS> What is your answer?
>
> There is a big doubt about it.
In whose mind?
> The average death toll can be higher but it is important how to
> count deaths. There are millions of people who die every year
> from variety of illnesses. If a person with flu dies from
> diabetes or oncology, cardiovascular disease etc -- only crazy
> people can put such deaths on flu's account.
It is not so simple, because many deathds due to COVID-19 have been
caused by various compications and aggravations of pre-existent
chronic illnesses, often on the background of a weak immune system.
Are you familliar with the chaos theory and its herarchy of causes?
> Another matter with covid - now WHO tells us that if a person
> dies and he/she has a covid virus - it should be treated as a
> death from covid.
What do you mean? The cause of every single death is alway
investigated according to our general law, which has nothing to do
with the temporary anti-COVID measures. No doubt, special attention
is being paid to the testing and diagnosis of COVID during this
pandemic.
> That's why many countries have so different statistics.
Why do you exclude the natural suggestion of different
epidemiolocal situations existing in different countries on account
of such factors as population density, habits, and measures taken?
> Now Russia also began count it in such a way,
What way, exactly?
> and death toll in Russia began growing quickly. It is a dirty
> trick.
You seem to imply that we have changed the method of calculating
deaths due to COVID-19. If so, what evidence do you have of it?
> I have already explained to you the quarantine idea. It can be
> tried. But if after this measure covid tests continue to show
> mass infection -- such quarantine should be lifted because it is
> useless and cripples economy.
As I have already answered, the lifting of these measures will
aggravate the situtiaon and overwhelm the medical system way beyond
its handling capacity. As a result, the death rate and death toll
will surge.
> It means that huge masses of the police, National Guard troops,
> Government structures, workers of important plants, shops who
> keep working, and usual people who shopping -- are, all together,
> a perfect engine to spread covid19.
Not perfect if they take precautions. They can't go on vacation
anyways, and everybody else must cooperate to save those people of
COVID and prevent them from infecting others.
> Another factor is that there are huge masses of infected/recovered
> people who don't know that they were infected/ill with covid19,
> so they are out of statistics.
If so, how do you know that they exist?
> Vast majority of them is without symptoms or almost without them.
Yes, I have heard of the symptomless development of the infecion,
but is reported to be around 25%:
https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-asymptomatic-spread.html
It not a "vast majory", as you say.
> Nobody tested them. These people are the main engine of the
> infection.
vehicle
> But we know that if 70% of the population catch the
> illness and recover the epidemic stops.
That may be correct, so what?
> So we should isolate old or sick people and let other people live
> a normal life.
Do you realise how hard it is to isolate the old from the young?
Do you propose a network of concentration camps? Do you realise
that it is not only old people that die by COVID? The first
reporter of the beginning pandemic, now China's and the World's
hero Li Winliang, died of the virus at 33:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang
> In this case the average year death toll will be as a normal
> death toll from flu/pneumonia.
First, what makes you thing so? Second, it is atrocious to
sacrifice even a single human life, regardless of statistics.
> The excessive deaths in Italy and the US are also because of
> unpreparedness and lack of knowledge how to defend themselves
> from the virus. But now the safe measures for old and sick people
> can be implemented adequately.
I doublt it is so easy (see above).
> ak>> They have created panic, psychosis [...]
>
> AS> Again, I live in the Moscow region and see no sings of a
> AS> panic or psychosis. On the contrary -- people are calm and
> AS> too careless, too well-at-ease.
>
> Panic was created not for people -- it is a cover, a
> justification for freedom to be giving away.
Whatever -- I see no panic or pshychosis, for the people or
otherwise. I don't understand what you mean.
> AS> KGB? I am sure it was the government in open cooperation
> AS> with the medical institutions.
>
> There are medical specialists who think in other way, but they
> are not allowed on state TV.
Which orgranisations in Russia are working on the development of
tests and vaccines is open information, and KGB is not one of
them, no thanks.
> AS> I once saw a meeting summouned by one Navalnyj. He had
> AS> thosands of befuddled teenages chant in rythm: "Putin is a
> AS> thief! Putin is a thief!". That is not was not a
> AS> constructive meeting but a low and amoral mass manipulation.
> AS> Such meetings should not be allowed at all. So it all
> AS> depends on what people say and do at the meeting, and!?!
> AS> democracy' is a hackneyed, inflated, and abused word.
>
> Democracy in Russia was shot and killed from tanks in 1993.
You may say so, and we are barely starting to recover.
> This app gives people a pass to go out. You cannot even ride your
> own car without it.
That is wrong. There are *two* alternative ways to obtain the pass:
1. By SMS
2. Through the State Services portal
Having no smartphone, I have used both of them.
> But read the comments in Google Play.
No, you do your homework!
> Under the constitution people can be ordered such things only
> after Emergency status has been introduced in the country.
Interesting. But it is a poor constituion that does not let the
government to defend its people from a pandemic without an all-out
emergecy.
> So all the orders which we hear now are completely lawlessness,
> and KGB and Putin do what occur to them.
I choose life!
> AS> Some do it less, some more carefully, and some not at all.
> AS> Self-isolation can never be perfect, but it decreases
> AS> social interation, slows down the propagation of the virus,
> AS> and relieves the strain on the medical system, letting them
> AS> save more lives by keeping the load within their capacity.
>
> I have heard enough lie from the state TV.
I don't know what lies you mean, so I cannot comment. Provide at
least a single attributed citation, for an example.
> The vast majority of people who put into infectious diseases
> hospitals have mild or no symptoms of covid.
How do you know that? On what accout are these people put into
hostitals if they have no symtoms, and therefore have not been
tested for COVID?
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