MSGID: 1:153/716.0 c9d8c375   
   REPLY: 2:221/6.0 5c8e3076   
   CHRS: IBMPC 2   
   Hi, Alexander!  Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:   
      
    AK>  I still cannot see the logic why she used _them_ instead   
    AK>  of _those_. It is not a kind of error a Russian could make.   
      
    AH>  No... it's the sort of error a lower-class native speaker   
    AH>  who'd had little or no formal education would have made at   
    AH>  the time of writing.   
      
                                  [...]   
      
    AK>  Well, _them_ is well known pronoun, who can we mix it up   
    AK>  with _those_?.   
      
      
               According to FOWLER'S this usage seems to have been quite common in   
    the 16th-19th centuries, but was "downgraded" in the 20th century & is   
   regarded as "dialectal or illiterate" at present.  It may not technically be an   
    error... OTOH, Higgins was attempting to teach standard English as it was used   
    among the well-educated middle-class people he'd grown up with & worked with   
   as an adult. While the English language is always growing & changing, formal   
   English remains heavily influenced by late-Victorian grammarians who wanted to   
   tidy it up.  :-)   
      
      
      
    AK>  Can I, for instance, say, "I gave _them_ _them_ books"?   
      
      
               I could say (that) that sentence may have been regarded as correct,   
    at one time... but under normal circumstances I'd avoid using the same word   
   for two different purposes within the same sentence.   
      
      
      
    AK>  It is not a matter of education, IMHO. ;)   
      
      
               To some extent I think it is.  I had to make a conscious effort not   
    to improve on the wording of my own example because although it's   
   grammatically correct it sounds awkward.  As an educated person I can easily   
   think of various alternatives... apart from leaving out the first "that"...   
   which would be a lot more pleasing to the ear.  More education -> more choices.   
     Since English isn't your native language you may have fewer choices.  Like   
   the majority of Russians I've met here, though, you have a finely tuned ear &   
   you understand the grammar   
   ... both of which can be put to good use in discussions like this.  :-)   
      
      
      
    AK>  But Eliza got her English with her mother's milk.   
      
      
               Uh-huh.  If we reckon Eliza was born during the 1890's & her mother   
    was born +/- twenty years earlier... a not unreasonable assumption, IMHO,   
   since I was informed by an older female relative that the onset of puberty   
   around the 50th parallel of latitude occurred much later in those days than it   
   does now... Eliza's mother would have taught her to speak in a manner which was   
    regarded as quite acceptable during the 1870's.  I don't know precisely when   
   or how the use of "them" as a demonstrative pronoun fell into disfavour, but I   
   imagine neither Eliza nor her mother would have studied any academic debates   
   about it....  :-))   
      
      
      
    AK>  We can admit that she had an ignoble pronunciation,   
      
      
               ... Higgins' chief concern, at least initially.   
      
      
      
    AK>  but mixing _them_ and _those_ is too much, IMHO.   
      
      
               Whatever its official status is nowadays, I wouldn't do it....  :-)   
      
      
      
    AK>  I like when you write something complicated and   
    AK>  nativenglishly. ;=)   
      
      
               I'm delighted to hear that, because I imagine my readers will learn   
    most if I keep stretching the limits of their understanding... [chuckle].   
      
      
      
    AK>  But when a person has nothing to say to the point   
    AK>  he usually starts carping at other person. ;)   
      
      
               I've noticed such goings-on elsewhere too.  As often as not someone   
    catches them at it, however, and says "I see you've run out of arguments".    
   :-Q   
      
      
      
      
   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+   
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