MSGID: 1:153/716.0 c8d68c62   
   REPLY: 2:221/6.0 5c7e2302   
   CHRS: IBMPC 2   
   Hi, Alexander!  Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:   
      
   AK>  I remember that in Russia a tsar used plural pronouns for   
   AK>  a single person. He wrote his decrees in the following way:   
   AK>  "We, the great tsar of Russia, declare..."   
      
      
              This usage... generally limited to reigning monarchs... is known in   
   English as "the royal we".  Queen Victoria commented "We are not amused" on an   
   occasion when someone told a risqu‚ joke within her hearing.  I understand the   
   original idea was that the monarch spoke on behalf of his/her country....  :-)   
      
      
      
   AK>  It is difficult to fight with people when they have a bad   
   AK>  habit. I remember a thing from Pygmalion, by Bernard Shaw:   
   AK>  -----Beginning of the citation-----   
   AK>  HIGGINS.  How the devil do I know what's to become of you?   
   AK>  What does it matter what becomes of you?   
      
   AK>  LIZA. You don't care. I know you don't care.  You wouldn't   
   AK>  care if I was dead. I'm nothing to you -- not so much as   
   AK>  them slippers.   
      
   AK>  HIGGINS [thundering] THOSE slippers.   
   AK>  ----- The end of the citation -----   
      
   AK>  I still cannot see the logic why she used _them_ instead of   
   AK>  _those_. ;-) It is not a kind of error a Russian could make.   
      
      
              No... it's the sort of error a lower-class native speaker who'd had   
   little or no formal education would have made at the time of writing.  Higgins   
   conducted an experiment to find out whether a young adult who was motivated to   
   learn would be able to change habitual speech patterns.  Both he & his student   
   seem to have reverted to old habits when they were emotionally upset....  :-))   
      
              Those who are not native speakers of English tend to make different   
   errors.  People from Russia have difficulty with articles, for the same reason   
   people from China have difficulty with plurals:  the rules are a bit different   
   in their language.  I see no need to pluralize "broccoli", e.g., because it is   
   plural already... yet I would say "a bunch of grapes".  When I visit the local   
   greengrocery I understand that from a Chinese POV it might be more appropriate   
   to say "one potato, two potato, three potato" (i.e. a counting game used in my   
   childhood).  From my POV as an advanced student of English it's easier to sort   
   out many of the apparent inconsistencies with a dictionary which explains what   
   language xxx came from & how it was spelled in this language at the time.  :-)   
      
      
      
    >>>  Its use in formal English has become more common with the   
    >>>  trend toward gender-neutral language,   
      
    AH>  It has become more common in recent years, but not because   
    AH>  the mood at the time of its resurgence took into account   
    AH>  that our ancestors knew things we might well pay attention   
    AH>  to.  Quite the contrary... Jerry Rubin, e.g., made headlines   
    AH>  when he advised other folks not to trust anybody over 30.  I   
    AH>  suppose they must have followed his advice because he doesn't   
    AH>  make headlines now. ;-)   
      
   AK>  I imagine what does a foreign student think when he hears   
   AK>  the sentence like the first sentence in last paragraph. ;)   
   AK>  After reading it ten times I think I understood what you   
   AK>  meant. ;=)   
      
      
              Good point.  Alexander has been with us for over a decade, he reads   
   widely, and I know that if he doesn't understand what I'm babbling about he'll   
   say so... but I don't mean to leave him & other folks behind in the dust.  :-)   
      
              It appears that native speakers of English saw a need for a gender-   
   neutral singular pronoun centuries ago & began using "they" for the purpose in   
   colloquial speech.  Some grammarian(s) disapproved.  But some later writers...   
   notably George Bernard Shaw & Winston Churchill... questioned what they'd been   
   taught about how things "should" be done.  I suppose everyone wants to improve   
   on what previous generations have accomplished.  Sometimes there may be a hint   
   of adolescent rebellion... most evident in the late 1960's & early 1970's when   
   teenagers & young adults hoped to improve on what their parents & grandparents   
   had done.  I've yet to hear anyone admit to building on ideas which came to us   
   during the Renaissance, and which we've adopted with a few minor changes.  :-Q   
      
      
      
      
   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+   
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