Hi, Alexander!  Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:   
      
    ak>  I see your point - you actually say that there is no   
    ak>  difference between a gerund and an "ing" verbal noun.   
      
      
               That's what my (1998) FOWLER's tells me... and I believe it   
   because the author's analysis of the matter is quite consistent with my   
   experience.  As a student in high school I was taught to use the name   
   "gerund".  But during the 1960's in particular a growing body of linguists who   
   felt squeamish about using methodology derived from Latin grammar tried to   
   replace it with alternatives of their own invention.  While some of these   
   ideas caught on, others didn't and/or were more generally accepted in some   
   circles than in others.   
      
               I understand the objection Winston Churchill had to the "rule"   
   that we mustn't split infinitives in English because it can't be done in   
   Latin.  And as a native speaker of English I understand that a proper noun or   
   a common noun or a verbal noun is, first & foremost, a noun.  You may find it   
   easier to grasp the concept if you think of it that way.  From my POV   
   traditional terms are the most widely understood, most of the time... and   
   "gerund" is easier to type than "verbal -ing noun".  However, the latter is   
   more or less self-explanatory.  :-)   
      
      
      
    ak>  I as said before I was taught that there are nouns   
    ak>  that are derived from verbs   
      
      
               Yes.  Sometimes they are called "back formations" because the   
   usual progression is noun -> verb -> adjective -> adverb.  If little Ivan is   
   ready to say his first words, Mommy & Daddy will point to each other and   
   demonstrate how parents are named in the language they're most comfortable   
   with and/or think he will need most.  Later on he will begin to understand   
   that the names of certain things may... +/- a bit of inflection... apply to   
   actions.  Etymology is not an exact science, of course, but I see the same   
   pattern of development there.   
      
               Okay... so what does all this have to do with what folks like you   
   & Anton see in your grammar textbooks?  Although it may seem like a diversion   
   the history is significant.  Imagine a green & pleasant isle where many people   
   from many different places said to themselves over a period of two thousand   
   years or so "There's a nice bit of real estate... I'd like some of it!"  The   
   inhabitants dealt with this problem in either of two ways.  They headed for   
   the hills... or they learned to get along by simplifying inflections & by   
   recognizing that they could go on selling their "cattle" (e.g.) even if others   
   called it "beef".  ;-)   
      
      
      
    ak>  We cannot say that a gerund is a form of a noun.   
    ak>  Otherwise we would study it when we study nouns.   
      
      
               It looks like a present participle, but it functions as a noun.    
   In the usual order of things we learn nouns first.  It's only when you know   
   enough about verbs to recognize a present participle that you start to wonder   
   what the heck is going on.  I'm sure there are millions of native speakers   
   who, if asked what their favourite sports are, would list activities like   
   baseball & football & ice hockey & swimming & canoeing & hiking & shooting   
   clay pigeons.  They seem to get through life without analyzing the grammar.    
   But many of us here grew up on the wrong side of the tracks or the other side   
   of the ocean, and for us it's important to understand what they're doing (or   
   believe they're doing)....  :-))   
      
      
      
    ak>  I hope we will continue hear your valuable comments   
    ak>  on our mistakes and delusions. ;-)   
      
      
               Thankyou.  I'm delighted to hear from readers who want to know   
   more about this weird & wonderful language, and I enjoy the exercise too....   
   [grin].   
      
      
      
      
   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+   
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)