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   ENGLISH_TUTOR      English Tutoring for Students of the Eng      4,347 messages   

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   Message 2,030 of 4,347   
   Ardith Hinton to alexander koryagin   
   Collective Nouns... 2.   
   28 Jun 16 05:01:28   
   
   Hi again, Alexander!  This is a continuation of my previous message to you:   
      
   ak>  But [mass nouns] are sometimes used with "a" when the   
   ak>  noun is modificated with another word.   
                |In English we generally say "modified by".   
                I know a native speaker of English who made   
                a similar error after living in France for   
                two years & marrying a Frenchman.  What she   
                did was Anglicize her pronunciation of the   
                French ending of the word "amplifier".  But   
                I knew what she meant, as I did there.  :-)   
      
      
      
   ak>  My example: A cosy warmth filled the room.   
      
      
             Some kinds of warmth may be comforting & others less so.  I see this   
   as analogous to what you told us earlier about various kinds of honey....  :-)   
      
      
      
   AH>  FOWLER'S estimates that there are 200+ collective nouns   
   AH>  in English... not counting names for groups of animals,   
   AH>  such as "a gaggle of geese".   
      
   ak>  You mean that "A gaggle of geese cackle outdoors." Yes?   
   ak>  (not cackles)   
      
      
             How about "A gaggle of geese was crossing the road, just in front of   
   my car?"  That's how city folks would talk & it's probably the answer you'd be   
   expected to offer on a grade twelve English exam... especially if the sentence   
   appeared in isolation.  Now suppose the geese belonged to your grandfather the   
   beekeeper.  I reckon you might take a personal interest in them & notice there   
   were other geese belonging to him beside the farm pond or whatever.  IOW you'd   
   feel about them as Wordsworth did about the daffodils.  I doubt he knew all of   
   their names, or counted them one by one, but I think he cared about them.   
      
             A further explanation as to why we do what we do came to mind when I   
   read a discussion elsewhere about whether "ZCC" should be masculine, feminine,   
   or neuter.  The consensus among the participants was that much depends on what   
   language a person is using.  In English the ZCC is an "it" although it is made   
   up of male & female human beings.  (BTW... good work, xxcarol!  I realize your   
   life circumstances have changed & you haven't written much lately where I hang   
   out most often, but if you're lurking in E_T I'd enjoy hearing from you.)  The   
   ZCC, like the FTSC, is a committee working within Fidonet.  We usually reserve   
   the masculine & feminine pronouns for human beings or cherished family pets...   
   with a few exceptions, such as ships & countries.  Any sort of private club is   
   treated grammatically as neuter along with committees & subcommittees of same.   
   OTOH, if you really care about certain human beings and/or certain family pets   
   and/or the livestock from your grandfather's farm and/or the holly trees which   
   your neighbours planted years ago between their residence & yours you'll begin   
   to see what distinguishes one from another, and there's where knowing you have   
   a choice with collective nouns may be helpful.  Grammatically the pronouns you   
   use, if you want to add more details, must agree with your decision re whether   
   to treat the group as singular or plural.  If the verb indicates you regard it   
   as plural you can use "they"... which applies equally well to any gender.  :-)   
      
      
      
   AH>  A bunch of the boys were whooping it up   
   AH>  In the Malamute Saloon....   
   AH>                        Robert W. Service, ca. 1905   
      
      
   ak>  That's it. ;)   
      
      
             Glad you like it!  Penned by an ex-Brit Canadian, I might add.  :-))   
      
      
      
      
   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+   
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)   

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