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   ENGLISH_TUTOR      English Tutoring for Students of the Eng      4,347 messages   

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   Message 2,010 of 4,347   
   Ardith Hinton to alexander koryagin   
   King, Sherlock Holmes and a verb ;)   
   11 Jun 16 22:52:15   
   
   Hi, Alexander!  Recently you wrote in a message to All:   
      
   ak> In a novel "A SCANDAL IN BOHEMIA" about Sherlock Holmes, by Sir   
   ak> Arthur Conan Doyle, I've read this:   
      
   ak> =========Beginning of the citation==============   
   ak>     "On  the  contrary,  my  dear  sir," cried the King; "nothing   
   ak> could be more  successful. I know that her word is inviolate. The   
   ak> photograph is now as safe as if it were in the fire."   
   ak>     "I am glad to hear your Majesty say so."   
   ak>     "I  am  immensely  indebted  to  you.  Pray  tell me in what way   
   ak> I can reward  you.  This ring-" He slipped an emerald snake ring   
   ak> from his finger and held it out upon the palm of his hand.   
   ak>     "Your  Majesty  has  something which I should value even more   
   ak> highly," said Holmes.   
      
   ak> =========The end of the citation================   
      
      
   ak> It seems something strange:   
      
   ak> 1. I am glad to hear your Majesty _say_ so. (I'd write "says or   
   ak> said")   
      
      
             How about "I'm glad to hear you say so, Mr. President?" or "I'm glad   
   to hear you, i.e. Alexander Koryagin, or [him/her/it/them] say so?"   
      
             When in doubt I often find it helpful to use substitute words and/or   
   change the word order.  The infinitive may be confusing there, but IMHO Holmes   
   can be trusted to speak English correctly in view of the time & place....  ;-)   
      
             Another example, which Dallas & I observed in the TV news just after   
   we'd received your message:  an old brick building in Vancouver was demolished   
   because it was considered to be unsafe & the necessary repairs would have been   
   prohibitively expensive.  The owner of the property was hoping to sell it to a   
   developer.  Over a year has now elapsed & no prospective buyers have appeared.   
   Meanwhile, the rubble which was not properly dealt with has attracted hundreds   
   of rats.  Scientists from a local university caught fifteen of them in one day   
   with just one trap, and they're having a great time determining whether or not   
   we have cause for concern about a 21st century equivalent of the Black Plague.   
   The reason I am relating this long & sordid tale, however, pertains to the use   
   of a similar grammatical construction.  When residents of the neighbourhood...   
   i.e. folks who are almost certainly at a much lower level on the socioeconomic   
   spectrum than the hero of Sir Arthur's tales... are asked for their opinion on   
   the subject a typical response is "I'd like to see the city clean it up & send   
   the bill to the owner."  IOW this usage still persists on the Wet Coast of BC,   
   thousands of miles away & a century later, even among folks who are neither as   
   intelligent nor as well-educated as the fictional person in your example.  :-)   
      
      
      
   ak> 2. Your  Majesty  _has_  something...   
      
      
             Makes sense to me.  I have something, you (singular) have something,   
   he/she/it has something.  We have something, you (plural) have something, they   
   have something.  If Holmes wasn't asking a favour it would be quite acceptable   
   to use "Sir" after the initial "Your Majesty"... or it would be nowadays.  But   
   21st century monarchs say things like "my husband & I" whereas in your example   
   we are dealing with a more formal era.  It seems to me "Your Majesty" is being   
   treated grammatically as third person singular... or maybe the vocative case I   
   heard about in Latin class is still used in English, but nobody ever explained   
   it to me that way!  Once again about all I can add is that I've run across the   
   same usage in various books which originated during the past 400+ years.  :-))   
      
      
      
   ak> It means that in the first sentence it must be "says"?   
      
      
             No, but I'm still wondering whether the infinitive may be the source   
   of confusion.  The infinitive in English can perform various roles... e.g.   
      
               To be, or not to be:  That is the question.  (noun)   
      
               To err is human; to forgive, divine.  (adjective)   
      
      
   And to make matters worse, "to" may be omitted on occasion... e.g.   
      
               I'd like to dance and tap my feet   
               But they won't keep in rhythm   
      
   [This is a song.  It's not formal English.  The composer(s) wanted the line to   
   scan with the correct number of syllables... and I agree with their decision.]   
      
      
      
      
   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+   
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)   

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