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|    ENGLISH_TUTOR    |    English Tutoring for Students of the Eng    |    4,347 messages    |
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|    Message 1,885 of 4,347    |
|    Ardith Hinton to alexander koryagin    |
|    Animal gender    |
|    06 Sep 15 23:42:47    |
      Hi, Alexander! Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:               AH> Until the late 20th century, "he" was a standard default position        AH> in formal English when the gender of some individual person or        AH> animal could not be easily determined. Anybody who could describe        AH> Bagheera as well as Kipling does here, however, would almost        AH> certainly be aware of this animal's gender.... ;-)               ak> Your point is unclear. :)                      You asked a question & then told me what you already knew about       the subject... which AFAIC is a very effective learning strategy.                      I think the problem is that there are two issues here:               1) Is Bagheera male? Yes.               2) Can a female animal also be referred to as "he"? Sometimes, yes.                            ak> How could I be aware of it?                      Ah, the joy of English! As a translator you want to understand       how Paul & I can be so sure of Bagheera's gender. Okay... we're both familiar       with British English & we've both read at least one of Kipling's novels at       some time in our lives. The same may apply in your case. What's missing is       the cultural aspect, the opportunity to observe from processing multiple       examples that folks speak differently depending on how they feel about a       particular animal.... :-)                            ak> If "he" is a standard default in Kipling's time, we can       ak> expect that we will use "his" to that animal.                      Okay. Grammatically... he/his, her/hers, it/its.               Regarding Bagheera in particular, however, there is no need for       the author to use the default here. As the creator of a fictitious human or       animal character, Kipling knows whether that character is male or female. If       we don't know whether some animal is male or female we might say "he" or even       "it". But I'd be very careful about referring to a cherished family pet that       way.... ;-)                            ak> We cannot use "he" and "her" simultaneously?                      Conversationally we might begin by using the default & revise it       in the light of added info. That's what the guy in the following tale should       have done. He gave me an example of how *not* to go about such things...       [chuckle].                      Years ago... while I was working in our back yard, accompanied by       a large dog... a neighbour stopped to chat. The conversation went like this:               N: What's his [i.e. the dog's] name?               A: Lady.               N: He's overweight, isn't he?               A: No.               N: What kind of dog is he?               A: (aside) He reminds me of people who say "How-are-you-that's-good" without        waiting for an answer. Okay, so this conversation is just friendly noise.        I won't waste time trying to educate him.              Now... lest my friends from Russia worry about what others will think when       they aren't sure which pronoun to use... in situations like this, native       speakers of English often find it a challenge too. I could have forgiven the       guy for being slow on the uptake re the grammar. I have little tolerance,       however, for those who (e.g.) make pronouncements about a dog's weight when       they have no idea what variety of dog they're looking at. If he'd asked the       last two questions in the opposite order I could have replied that looks are       often deceiving & that under her long, fluffy hair Lady wasn't as plump as he       evidently thought she was. In the EdBiz it is well known that "judgement       precludes perception"... [wry grin].                                   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+        * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)    |
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