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   ENGLISH_TUTOR      English Tutoring for Students of the Eng      4,347 messages   

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   Message 1,885 of 4,347   
   Ardith Hinton to alexander koryagin   
   Animal gender   
   06 Sep 15 23:42:47   
   
   Hi, Alexander!  Recently you wrote in a message to Ardith Hinton:   
      
    AH> Until the late 20th century, "he" was a standard default position   
    AH> in formal English when the gender of some individual person or   
    AH> animal could not be easily determined. Anybody who could describe   
    AH> Bagheera as well as Kipling does here, however, would almost   
    AH> certainly be aware of this animal's gender.... ;-)   
      
    ak> Your point is unclear. :)   
      
      
               You asked a question & then told me what you already knew about   
   the subject... which AFAIC is a very effective learning strategy.   
      
      
               I think the problem is that there are two issues here:   
      
    1)  Is Bagheera male?  Yes.   
      
    2)  Can a female animal also be referred to as "he"?  Sometimes, yes.   
      
      
      
   ak>  How could I be aware of it?   
      
      
               Ah, the joy of English!  As a translator you want to understand   
   how Paul & I can be so sure of Bagheera's gender.  Okay... we're both familiar   
   with British English & we've both read at least one of Kipling's novels at   
   some time in our lives.  The same may apply in your case.  What's missing is   
   the cultural aspect, the opportunity to observe from processing multiple   
   examples that folks speak differently depending on how they feel about a   
   particular animal....  :-)   
      
      
      
   ak>  If "he" is a standard default in Kipling's time, we can   
   ak>  expect that we will use "his" to that animal.   
      
      
               Okay.  Grammatically... he/his, her/hers, it/its.   
      
               Regarding Bagheera in particular, however, there is no need for   
   the author to use the default here.  As the creator of a fictitious human or   
   animal character, Kipling knows whether that character is male or female.  If   
   we don't know whether some animal is male or female we might say "he" or even   
   "it".  But I'd be very careful about referring to a cherished family pet that   
   way....  ;-)   
      
      
      
   ak>  We cannot use "he" and "her" simultaneously?   
      
      
               Conversationally we might begin by using the default & revise it   
   in the light of added info.  That's what the guy in the following tale should   
   have done.  He gave me an example of how *not* to go about such things...   
   [chuckle].   
      
      
               Years ago... while I was working in our back yard, accompanied by   
   a large dog... a neighbour stopped to chat.  The conversation went like this:   
      
    N:  What's his [i.e. the dog's] name?   
      
    A:  Lady.   
      
    N:  He's overweight, isn't he?   
      
    A:  No.   
      
    N:  What kind of dog is he?   
      
    A:  (aside)  He reminds me of people who say "How-are-you-that's-good" without   
        waiting for an answer.  Okay, so this conversation is just friendly noise.   
        I won't waste time trying to educate him.   
      
   Now... lest my friends from Russia worry about what others will think when   
   they aren't sure which pronoun to use... in situations like this, native   
   speakers of English often find it a challenge too.  I could have forgiven the   
   guy for being slow on the uptake re the grammar.  I have little tolerance,   
   however, for those who (e.g.) make pronouncements about a dog's weight when   
   they have no idea what variety of dog they're looking at.  If he'd asked the   
   last two questions in the opposite order I could have replied that looks are   
   often deceiving & that under her long, fluffy hair Lady wasn't as plump as he   
   evidently thought she was.  In the EdBiz it is well known that "judgement   
   precludes perception"... [wry grin].   
      
      
      
      
   --- timEd/386 1.10.y2k+   
    * Origin: Wits' End, Vancouver CANADA (1:153/716)   

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