Hello Alexander,   
      
    BK>>>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any   
    BK>>>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a   
    BK>>>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long   
    BK>>>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.   
      
    AK>>> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab girls   
    AK>>> in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush into the main   
    AK>>> Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah, kill infidels?"   
    AK>>> Jews, I believe, can understand that such an act is criminal and   
    AK>>> completely unacceptable. But   
      
    BK>> Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years.   
      
    ak> Maybe it is correct that the scale of the insult had been taken into   
    ak> account. One thing, when you insulted a few passengers in the bus. 30   
    ak> days of detention is a just term. Another thing, when you desecrated the   
    ak> main state cathedral and insulted millions of believers.   
      
   I got in a bit of trouble some years ago for doing something in   
   church a priest thought was sacriligious.  It was a Sunday, and   
   that particular Sunday was March 17.  When it came time for communion,   
   the priest started placing those wafers in the mouths and hands of the   
   faithful, and his face suddenly turned ghastly white when he discovered   
   those wafers were a very pale shade of green.   
      
   It was the last time I ever served as altar boy, even though   
   I did have permission from the bishop to dye the wafers green   
   for St. Patrick's Day.   
      
    ak> I don't believe that they were imprisoned for their chanting "Mother of   
    ak> God, remove Putin from Russia." If they had said it loudly, without that   
    ak> fucking fuss, they would not have been taken in court.   
      
   I got thrown out of a chapel on campus when I was a college student   
   for having lined the priest's chalice with jalapeno pepper juice.   
   The priest knew it was me after drinking the wine during Mass.   
   Not sure how he knew it was me, but he knew.  ;)   
      
    BK>> Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with whips   
    BK>> in Sochi last February?   
      
    ak> There are hooligans in any part of politics or culture. Some local   
    ak> Cossack went go beyond their commission when they had seen that the   
    ak> girls were going to undertake another performance. But surely, that   
    ak> whipping was to scare the girls. I think you understand well that if the   
    ak> girls had had the traces of whipping on the bodies they would have   
    ak> interneted them out instantly.   
      
   So the girls were into BDSM ...   
      
    AK>>> It is now all the same for them -- a gay parade in a street or a   
    AK>>> fucking mess in the main cathedral. It must be equally allowed.   
    AK>>> Well, at least in Russia. ;)   
      
   You should go to Mass at St. Louis Cathedral in New Orleans.   
   Located in the French Quarter.  Not only do tourists attend Mass,   
   but also locals, including strippers, gays, lesbians, people of   
   all kinds and nationalities.   
      
    BK>> Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing in   
    BK>> a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown out. If   
    BK>> they have been praising Putin they would probably get a medal.   
      
    ak> Every culture has its own understanding about limitations the people   
    ak> must impose on themselves voluntarily. Such limitations define   
    ak> civilization. Such a thing cannot be universal. For instance, in the US   
    ak> Madonna glints with its naked hams and the crowd roars, but in some   
    ak> countries she is seen disdainfully, like a prostitute.   
      
   I have met Madonna.  At Molly's Bar in New Orleans.  She had   
   just finished giving a performance at the Superdome.  Dressed   
   in a trench coat, donning a pair a dark sunglasses, wearing   
   a fedora.  At way past midnight.  And believe me when I tell   
   you, her two beefy bodyguards made sure I treated her like   
   a virgin.   
      
    AK>>> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your comparisons   
    AK>>> are false. The only correct comparison is comparing the situation   
    AK>>> in Ukraine with the situation in Yugoslavia after some areas of it   
    AK>>> declared a separation.   
      
    BK>> Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in   
    BK>> provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there. They   
    BK>> have admitted they are there, but claim they are volunteers. What   
    BK>> would even volunteers be doing there?   
      
    ak> Russia sends nobody, at least nobody can prove it by facts. Volunteers   
    ak> penetrate into Ukraine themselves. As you know well until recent time   
    ak> the border between Ukraine and Russia was just a scratch on the map.   
      
   Russian security will keep all investigators safe from harm.   
   Putin is former KGB man.  He make sure no mistakes happen.   
      
    AK>>> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were also   
    AK>>> recognized across the world.   
    BK>> And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia?   
      
    ak> Ukraine fights with sepatist in its east. Yugoslavia fought with   
    ak> separatist on its west. That is the only difference. The main question   
    ak> is should a country kill thousand of people for their desire to live   
    ak> separately? Should the US or other country in the 21st century think   
    ak> that such killings are OK?   
      
   The better question would be -   
      
   Should a country kill thousands of own people for their desire   
   to live separately?   
      
   Case in point: The US Civil War 1861-1865   
      
    AK>>> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect to call   
    AK>>> them killers or terrorists, as the present authority does. More of   
    AK>>> that -- it is a gruesome propaganda   
      
    BK>> Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of the   
    BK>> 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the basis   
    BK>> for it being done?   
      
    ak> Separatist fighters in Ukraine have a wide support of the population.   
    ak> Especially now after hundreds of civilians were killed by the Ukraine's   
    ak> army.   
      
   Confederate fighters in the South had wide support of the population,   
   even after hundreds of civilians were killed by the Union's army.   
      
   See how that works?  The US knows how to play this game, having had   
   experience with such matters.  ;)   
      
    AK>>> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in Kiev   
    AK>>> they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against eastern   
    AK>>> protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil war had   
    AK>>> started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant for it.   
      
    BK>> So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians   
    BK>> living there should be enough to handle it.   
      
    ak> The great amount of volunteers from Russia is the Ukraine's propaganda   
    ak> invention. There are no trustworthy numbers.   
      
   There is much propaganda from all sides being spouted about.   
   Who knows what is going on?  Only the participants themselves.   
   And even they may not know themselves, except only a fraction of   
   what is going on or why.   
      
    ak> I think the number of volunteers from Russia is small. The reason is   
    ak> simple - what Russia is going to do by sending a small number of troops   
    ak> into Ukraine? Does it want to conquer Ukraine in such a way? No chances.   
    ak> The fighting in Ukraine has some sense only in the case that the local   
    ak> people form the bulk of fighters, and they are ready to fight for their   
    ak> freedom to the end.   
      
   Freedom?  What freedom?  Whose freedom?  Getting somebody to die   
   for somebody else is what rich old men who want to get richer try   
   to think up every day.   
      
   As for most folks, freedom is just another word for nothing left   
   to lose.  And that ain't much, in today's world.   
      
    AK>>>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force,   
    AK>>>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results.   
      
    BK>>>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.   
      
    AK>>> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the rebels.   
    AK>>> Actually, there was only one attempt to clear Maidan -- when   
    AK>>> Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The   
      
    BK>> Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at them.   
    BK>> It's legal here.   
      
    ak> Read   
    ak> [[[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/30_November_2013_attack_on_   
   rotesters#30_November_attack_on_protesters   
    ak> 30 November attack on protesters]]]   
      
    AK>>> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there was   
    AK>>> outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators were   
    AK>>> allowed to come back. After that the police looked like lamp posts   
    AK>>> and were burned alive with Molotov cocktails.   
      
    BK>> I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest lines,   
    BK>> and getting molotov cocktails in return.   
      
    ak> I saw million time when American police drives into the protest lines,   
    ak> but I never saw molotov cocktails in return. ;-) It is probably double   
    ak> standards.   
      
   American protesters prefer to burn American flags rather than throw   
   molotov cocktails.  You do know why American protesters burn American   
   flags, don't you?  Because American flags are made in China.  And   
   Americans want to buy products made in the USA.  As such, those   
   American protesters are patriots, not traitors.  But tell that to   
   FoxNews ...   
      
    BK>>>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten   
    BK>>>> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention   
    BK>>>> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding   
    BK>>>> the previous constitution be reinstated.   
      
    AK>>> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the legitimate   
    AK>>> state leader and, besides, the leader of the biggest   
    AK>>> parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to do the changes   
    AK>>> they wanted. It is democracy. If another   
      
    BK>> Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get to   
    BK>> rewrite the constitution just like that.   
      
    ak> Well, the new president Poroshenko promotes his variant of new   
    ak> constitution. It is also different from 2004 variant. New countries   
    ak> (like Ukraine) always construct new constitutes often.   
      
   The people of Ukraine have every right to write a new constitution.   
   Whenever they feel like it.   
      
    BK>> Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from the   
    BK>> military without help.   
      
    ak> It is possible when military refuse to shoot protesters.   
      
   Students at Kent State University had no intention of capturing   
   weapons and bases from the military ...   
      
    AK>>> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they must   
    AK>>> negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them terrorists and   
    AK>>> bandits. How easily some people can use such marks and tags!   
      
    BK>> Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know of.   
      
    ak> Ukraine authority call them always in such a way. The war operation in   
    ak> the Ukraine's east is called "ATO" -- anti terrorist operation.   
      
   Taking up arms against the government is a criminal act.   
   Unless the terrorists are successful, in which case they   
   become patriots who have done nothing wrong.   
      
   "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter." - Anon   
      
    AK>>> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest.   
    AK>>> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote (many of   
    AK>>> the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free in making their   
    AK>>> choice, and their votes were taken into account and not hidden.   
    AK>>> Everybody in the Crimea had an opportunity to express his choice.   
      
    BK>> Which requires outs"Oide observers to verify. Who was observing?   
      
    ak> All who wanted to. EU declared the referendum illegal and refused to   
    ak> send its observers. But any way there were many observers there.   
      
   There are watchers.  But who is watching the watchers?   
      
    AK>>> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil war? BTW,   
    AK>>> it is exactly the same reason why the latest elections in Syria   
    AK>>> were declared illegal by the West. Double standards?   
      
    BK>> Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is the   
    BK>> other army?   
      
    ak> Thousands of heavy armed insurgents?   
      
   The Ukraine military is winning this one, having taken back   
   over half the territory the "insurgents" had occupied.   
      
   --Lee   
      
   --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb   
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)