BK>> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any   
     BK>> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a   
     BK>> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long   
     BK>> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.   
      
    AK> I believe you can hardly imagine a situation when some Arab   
    AK> girls in frivolous, "ala gay parade" style clothes rush   
    AK> into the main Jerusalem synagogue and start singing "Allah,   
    AK> kill infidels?" Jews, I believe, can understand that such   
    AK> an act is criminal and completely unacceptable. But   
      
    Which would require maybe 30 days. Not several years.   
      
    BTW, how about, "God" do whatever, which is what Arab girls   
    would say. Well, if they spoke English.   
      
    Does that apply to the protest Pussy Riot being attacked with   
    whips in Sochi last February?   
      
    BTW, you chose the worst possible example when you chose Israel.   
    These were not foreign or even anti-Russian protestors, they are   
    Russians, and they didn't sing anything about killing innocents,   
    but a protest against Putin.   
      
    Which would be closer to Jews going into a Synogague and singing   
    a protest against Netanyahu. And there are plenty of Jews who   
    oppose Netanyahu.   
      
    AK> Americans think that it was OK, just because they had lost   
    AK> the true faith in God.   
      
    Russians spent 7 decades without recognition of God and couldn't   
    fix that. Americans have as much faith in God as Russians do,   
    which is damning with faint praise.   
      
    AK> It is now all the same for them -- a   
    AK> gay parade in a street or a fucking mess in the main   
    AK> cathedral. It must be equally allowed. Well, at least in   
    AK> Russia. ;)   
      
    Real freedom means a gay parade must be tolerated. As to singing   
    in a cathedral, how is that a fucking mess? So they get thrown   
    out. If they have been praising Putin they would probably get a   
    medal.   
      
    ...   
      
     AK>>> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of Russian   
     AK>>> tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.   
      
     BK>> Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops   
     BK>> and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently been   
     BK>> withdrawn.   
      
    AK> But now it is too early to speak in this way, and your   
    AK> comparisons are false. The only correct comparison is   
    AK> comparing the situation in Ukraine with the situation in   
    AK> Yugoslavia after some areas of it declared a separation.   
      
    Not really. Not is, "as is widely believed, Russia is sending in   
    provacatuers to instigate unrest, and soldiers to fight there.   
    They have admitted they are there, but claim they are   
    volunteers. What would even volunteers be doing there?   
      
    What part of Yugoslavia became part of Russia? I don't recall.   
      
      
    AK> Until the civil war Yugoslavia's borders and integrity were   
    AK> also recognized across the world.   
      
    And what part of Yougoslavia asked to be admitted to Russia?   
      
     BK>> What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states   
     BK>> reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.   
     BK>> That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid, including   
     BK>> the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few years ago.   
      
    AK> Many territories of the former USSR have still been closely   
    AK> related with each other as economically as in other areas.   
      
    Irrelevent.   
      
    AK> Actually, until last time, eastern Ukraine was separated   
    AK> from Russia only formally. In reality, all the eastern   
    AK> Ukraine plants continued working with Russian plants, there   
    AK> was no real border, people could freely move from one   
    AK> country to another. The same things are now with   
    AK> Byelorussia, Kazakhstan and some other former USSR   
    AK> republics.   
      
    Even you just referred to them as "republics".   
      
    AK> Putin has invented nothing. It is a lie, that   
    AK> all people of the republics of the USSR hated each other   
    AK> and had nothing in common. So, it is a natural idea to   
    AK> legalize things that have always been and have existed now.   
      
    Since no one said that, it is meaningless. Though I am sure many   
    did hate Russia, that does not mean they hated each other.   
      
     AK>>> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you think that   
     AK>>> Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia?   
      
     BK>> I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is   
     BK>> when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked   
     BK>> gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are they   
     BK>> masked?   
      
    AK> Well, if you had seen the Maidan rebellion in Kiev you   
    AK> could have also seen the rebels wearing masks. It is   
    AK> natural for this kind of events. These people have   
    AK> relatives, they are not sure that the secret police will   
    AK> not come to their homes during the night.   
      
    It is Russia that is famous for "secret police".   
      
    AK> You can also note that the police across all the world now   
    AK> uses modern technology - it photographs all the   
    AK> demonstrators, rebels so to create a special database for   
    AK> future arrests and repressions.   
      
    If they don't have a constitution with a court system that   
    vigorously enforces freedom of speech, that is a problem.   
      
    That takes us back to freedom of speech, freedom of assembly.   
      
     BK>> If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a   
     BK>> problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by masked   
     BK>> gunmen.   
      
    AK> The modern Ukraine mentality cannot accept that some people   
    AK> might have a desire to divorce and live separately. It is   
      
    And how does that justify Russian interference?   
      
    AK> like (in some Asian countries) women are not allowed to   
    AK> divorce on their own will.   
      
    No, it is not like that at all.   
      
    AK> Compare: Divorce in Saudi Arabia   
    AK> http://saudiwoman.me/2009/04/07/divorce-in-saudi-arabia/   
      
    No, I won't.   
      
     AK>>> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting in eastern Ukraine. It   
     AK>>> is the Russian people who always lived there, in eastern and   
      
    ...   
      
     BK>> Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and killing   
     BK>> people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how many Russian   
     BK>> people live there? And why are Russians living in Ukraine and   
     BK>> claiming the right to decide who rules the country?   
      
    AK> There are 8-9 million Russians in Ukraine. It is incorrect   
    AK> to call them killers or terrorists, as the present   
    AK> authority does. More of that -- it is a gruesome propaganda   
      
    Yet they have been killing people. Some of them. If the rest of   
    the 8-9 million Russians don't agree with that, then what is the   
    basis for it being done?   
      
    AK> and a lie. Russian people started their protests in the   
    AK> same lawless way the pro-western activists started their   
    AK> activity in Kiev -- noisy defiant demonstrations, capturing   
    AK> municipal buildings, dispersing the police etc. Yanukovich   
    AK> refused to shoot people in Kiev (my respect to him for   
      
    IOW, it wasn't a violent protest.   
      
    AK> that!), but after the western rebels had come to power in   
    AK> Kiev they shamelessly started to use a brutal force against   
    AK> eastern protesters. After some victims the wheel of a civil   
    AK> war had started its rotation. Blood is a perfect lubricant   
    AK> for it.   
      
    So, why are Russian "volunteers" involved? 8-9 million Russians   
    living there should be enough to handle it.   
      
     AK>>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured power by force,   
     AK>>> violating all democratic institutions and election results.   
      
     BK>> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.   
      
    AK> The Kiev police just guarded government buildings from the   
    AK> rebels. Actually, there was only one attempt to clear   
    AK> Maidan -- when Yanukovich was on his foreign visit. The   
      
    Ya know, if you include links to your sources I can look at   
    them. It's legal here.   
      
    AK> police had cleared Maidan during a half-an-hour. But there   
    AK> was outcry about democracy violation and the demonstrators   
    AK> were allowed to come back. After that the police looked   
    AK> like lamp posts and were burned alive with Molotov   
    AK> cocktails.   
      
    I saw one video of police vehicles driving into the protest   
    lines, and getting molotov cocktails in return.   
      
     BK>> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten after   
     BK>> Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention or such,   
     BK>> but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding the   
     BK>> previous constitution be reinstated.   
      
    AK> After wining the 2010 elections Yanukovich was the   
    AK> legitimate state leader and, besides, the leader of the   
    AK> biggest parliamentarian coalition. They had all rights to   
    AK> do the changes they wanted. It is democracy. If another   
      
    Nowhere in any democracy I am familiar with does the winner get   
    to rewrite the constitution just like that.   
      
    AK> party had won elections they could have do the same. They   
    AK> could join to Devil or so -- it would also a legal choice.   
    AK> The legal majority in Kiev was removed from parliament by   
    AK> force and threats.   
      
    Once they rewrote the constitution they ceased to be the legal   
    authority.   
      
    AK> That's why many in the east of the Ukraine (Yanukovich's   
    AK> electorate) consider the Kiev's events as an illegal cope   
    AK> and don't want to obey the new power.   
      
    Or they are Russian instigators.   
      
     BK>> ----------------------------------------------------------------   
     BK>> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830   
      
     BK>> But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them   
     BK>> protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of bloodshed,   
     BK>> that ultimately brought him down.   
     BK>> ----------------------------------------------------------------   
      
    AK> Can you pay attention that "many of them were protesters"?   
    AK> Who were the others? They were the police. They police   
    AK> returned fire only after they got under a sniper fire and   
    AK> lost a dozen of people. If the police had not shot with   
      
    You don't shoot innocent protestors to get revenge. And the 88   
    they are talking about were killed by police. Like the US Kent   
    State incident, during the Vietnam war, you can get innocent   
    bystanders killed when you fire on protestors.   
      
    AK> live ammunition for four or five months of the rebellion -   
    AK> what an event could provoke them to fire? Especially when   
      
    Losing the fight for public support could.   
      
    AK> an agreement with Yanukovich had been achieved? I strongly   
    AK> believe that some people in Maidan square did not want a   
    AK> peaceful solution. And they derailed the agreement in a   
    AK> most outrageous way.   
      
    Which does not mean the people who derailed it weren't the   
    police.   
      
    AK>    
     BK>> Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted to   
     BK>> cut the Ukraine up.   
      
    AK> Such events as a rule are made by small but active groups.   
    AK> Such a thing happened in Kiev, such a thing happened in   
    AK> eastern Ukraine. Russia has played a small role -- eastern   
    AK> rebels had quickly captured a lot of modern weapon and even   
    AK> some military bases. So now they are a force and if   
      
    Rebelious private citizens don't capture weapons and bases from   
    the military without help.   
      
    AK> somebody don't want to spill blood or fight with them they   
    AK> must negotiate with them and, first, to stop call them   
    AK> terrorists and bandits. How easily some people can use such   
    AK> marks and tags!   
      
    Who is calling them terrorists and bandits? No one here I know   
    of.   
      
    AK>    
      
     BK>> On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in the   
     BK>> Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian leadership was   
     BK>> installed. Then the regional parliament voted behind closed doors   
     BK>> for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join Russia, setting a referendum   
     BK>> for Sunday to validate their decision.   
      
    AK> It doesn't matter who were that gunmen.  Even id they   
    AK> guarded that meeting, surely the situation was not like in   
    AK> a Moscow theater which was captured by terrorists in 2002.   
      
    Unless those terrorists were Ukrainians your point is a   
    diversion.   
      
    AK> And at last about the referendum. It was open and honest.   
    AK> Everybody voted as he wanted. Those who chose not to vote   
    AK> (many of the 13% Tatar population, for instance) were free   
    AK> in making their choice, and their votes were taken into   
    AK> account and not hidden. Everybody in the Crimea had an   
    AK> opportunity to express his choice.   
      
    Which requires outside observers to verify. Who was observing?   
      
    AK> A NATO's general whined bitterly that the Crimea referendum   
    AK> "was held under Russian gun barrrels," but it is more fare   
    AK> to say that the last Ukraine elections were held under the   
    AK> gun barrels of Ukraine's army, at least in the east. What   
      
    Do you have a link to refer to on that?   
      
    AK> kind of fare elections can be in a country with a civil   
    AK> war? BTW, it is exactly the same reason why the latest   
    AK> elections in Syria were declared illegal  by the West.   
    AK> Double standards?   
      
    Do you see the Ukraine army fighting itself in this war? Who is   
    the other army?   
      
      
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
   ... ... Millions for comfort. Not one cent for truth.   
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