Hello Bob,   
      
   BOB KLAHN -> ALEXANDER KORYAGIN brought next idea :   
      
    BK> Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any   
    BK> idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a   
    BK> woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long   
    BK> time, is not a govt I believe is honest.   
      
   And what, pray tell, might "true freedom of speech and the press"   
   be?  Certainly we do not have that here, in the good old U.S. of A.   
   So how can you say or even suggest that Russia is any worse of a   
   country than we are when it comes to such matters?   
      
   In regards to Pussy Riot, those girls were not imprisoned because   
   of the music (if one can call it that) they played.  They desecrated   
   a church.  Try doing that in a church in America and see how long   
   it takes for the men in blue to come pick your sorry ass up.  The   
   congregation would applaud the cops and invite them all to dinner.   
      
    BK>>> I wonder about that. I wonder if, maybe, he's got it backwards. I   
    BK>>> wonder if the result of doing nothing might not be what leads to   
    BK>>> the war nobody wants.   
      
    BK>>> We have long been told that Hitler might have been stopped,   
    BK>>> probably would have been stopped, if the other nations had stepped   
    BK>>> in with his first aggression against the Sudentenland, against   
    BK>>> Austria, against those who could not defend themselves.   
      
    BK>>> What makes anyone think Putin is any less than Hitler?   
      
    AK>> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of   
    AK>> Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.   
      
    BK> Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops   
    BK> and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently   
    BK> been withdrawn.   
      
   We invaded Mexico and annexed half their country as our own.   
   We also invaded the Kingdom of Hawai'i and annexed that entire   
   country as our own.  At least we bought Alaska fair and square   
   from the Russians rather than taking it by force ...   
      
    BK> What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states   
    BK> reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.   
    BK> That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid,   
    BK> including the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few   
    BK> years ago.   
      
   President Putin is not interested in resurrecting the former   
   Soviet Union.  He was nothing more than a lowly clerk in the KGB   
   during those halcyon days, and not a very well-paid one at that.   
   Being Top Dog in the new Russia with all the pretty girls begging   
   him for favors is much more his style.   
      
   A return to the Cold War is not in Putin's (or Russia's) best   
   interest.  Putin knows this.  So do the Russian people, as well   
   as all of Europe.   
      
   What Putin wants is for Europe to remain divided, rather than   
   for Europe to unite in a tightly knit European Union.  Putin has   
   allies in Europe who are with him on this.  And it is with those   
   allies that Putin will seek to make deals, or at least use them   
   to gain influence with others.   
      
    AK>> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you   
    AK>> think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,   
    AK>> Czechoslovakia?   
      
    BK> I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is   
    BK> when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked   
    BK> gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are   
    BK> they masked?   
      
   Abraham Lincoln had no problem with slavery, but did have a big   
   problem with countries splitting up.  In fact, he had so much of   
   a problem he started a war ...   
      
    BK> If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a   
    BK> problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by   
    BK> masked gunmen.   
      
   President Jefferson Davis never wore a mask.  Neither did   
   General Robert E. Lee ...   
      
    AK>> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting   
    AK>> in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always   
    AK>> lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were   
    AK>> extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their   
    AK>> candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from   
    AK>> power.   
      
    BK> Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and   
    BK> killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how   
    BK> many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in   
    BK> Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?   
      
   It all ccmes down to one basic question - "What do the people want?"   
   And most people in Crimea consider themselves as being Russian.   
      
   --Lee   
      
      
    AK>> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured   
    AK>> power by force, violating all democratic institutions and   
    AK>> election results.   
      
    BK> By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.   
    BK> According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten   
    BK> after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention   
    BK> or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding   
    BK> the previous constitution be reinstated.   
      
      
      
      
    BK>   ----------------------------------------------------------------   
    BK>   http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830   
      
    BK>   But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them   
    BK>   protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of   
    BK>   bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down.   
    BK>   ----------------------------------------------------------------   
      
    AK>> Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist   
    AK>> Germany.   
      
    AK>> Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and   
    AK>> topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody   
    AK>> else.   
      
    BK>   Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.   
      
    BK>>> When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan   
    BK>>> and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would   
      
    BK>   ...   
      
    AK>> It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military   
    AK>> invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among   
    AK>> bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when   
      
    BK>   Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for   
    BK>   oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never   
    BK>   in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw   
    BK>   up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.   
      
    BK>   ...   
      
    BK>>> No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government,   
    BK>>> Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid   
    BK>>> would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to   
    BK>>> stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in   
    BK>>> spade, but too weak morally.   
      
    AK>> It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an   
    AK>> invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian   
    AK>> "invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.   
      
    BK>   Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted   
    BK>   to cut the Ukraine up.   
      
      
    BK>   http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd   
      
    BK>   washingtonpost   
    BK>   ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for-   
    BK>   aiding-current-government   
      
    BK>   Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news   
    BK>   conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the   
    BK>   legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon   
    BK>   Russia to intervene militarily.   
      
    BK>   The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir   
    BK>   Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia   
    BK>   asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day   
    BK>   after he spoke to the press.   
      
    BK>   ...   
      
    BK>   Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S.   
    BK>   for aiding current government   
      
    BK>   ...   
      
    BK>   "The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych   
    BK>   said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city   
    BK>   of Rostov-on-Don.   
      
    BK>   Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not   
    BK>   take questions, accused the West and the United States of   
    BK>   backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being   
    BK>   made by Russian authorities.   
      
    BK>   ...   
      
    BK>   On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in   
    BK>   the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian   
    BK>   leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted   
    BK>   behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join   
    BK>   Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their   
    BK>   decision.   
      
    BK>   Some links to look at.   
      
    BK>   Wall street journal   
    BK>   http://tinyurl.com/ohlh6ys   
      
    BK>   http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27633117   
      
    BK>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution   
      
      
    BK> BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
    BK> .. I'm not lost -- I'm "locationally challenged"   
    BK> --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]   
    BK>   * Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 bbs.docsnetservices.com (1:123/140)   
      
   --- MesNews/1.08.05.00-gb   
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)