.PID: SX 4.5/P/6.0W5 RB10275   
   .MSGID: 1:135/382 07e0d0d3   
      
    Without true freedom of speech and the press no one can have any   
    idea what is going on in Russia. However, any govt that puts a   
    woman's music group in prison for protest songs, and for a long   
    time, is not a govt I believe is honest.   
      
     BK>> I wonder about that. I wonder if, maybe, he's got it backwards. I   
     BK>> wonder if the result of doing nothing might not be what leads to   
     BK>> the war nobody wants.   
      
     BK>> We have long been told that Hitler might have been stopped,   
     BK>> probably would have been stopped, if the other nations had stepped   
     BK>> in with his first aggression against the Sudentenland, against   
     BK>> Austria, against those who could not defend themselves.   
      
     BK>> What makes anyone think Putin is any less than Hitler?   
      
    AK> Your words are a twaddle unless you see the columns of   
    AK> Russian tanks and troops marching along the Ukraine roads.   
      
    Once that happens it's too late. What we do know is those troops   
    and tanks were massed on the Ukraine border, but have recently   
    been withdrawn.   
      
    What Putin has accomplished is to give the former Soviet states   
    reason to believe he is trying to reconstitute the Soviet Union.   
    That gives them reason to ask for more US military aid,   
    including the anti-missile systems that had been canceled a few   
    years ago.   
      
    ...   
      
    AK> Who told you that countries cannot split up? Why do you   
    AK> think that Ukraine cannot split like Yugoslavia,   
    AK> Czechoslovakia?   
      
    I have no problem with countries splitting up. What I do have is   
    when one portion wants to secede, and the reports are of masked   
    gunmen patrolling the cities. If they are legitimate, why are   
    they masked?   
      
    If the people who live there want to split off, I don't have a   
    problem with that. I do have a problem with it being done by   
    masked gunmen.   
      
    AK> It is not pro-Russian forces are fighting   
    AK> in eastern Ukraine. It is the Russian people who always   
    AK> lived there, in eastern and southern Ukraine, and they were   
    AK> extremely insulted when pro-western rebels removed their   
    AK> candidate (Yanukovich, who won democratic elections) from   
    AK> power.   
      
    Being insulted is not ground for shooting up the place, and   
    killing people. It is not grounds for seizing power. Now, how   
    many Russian people live there? And why are Russians living in   
    Ukraine and claiming the right to decide who rules the country?   
      
    AK> Rebels in Kiev were minority, but they captured   
    AK> power by force, violating all democratic institutions and   
    AK> election results.   
      
    By force? It seems most of the force was used against them.   
    According to what I have seen, the constitution was rewritten   
    after Yonukovych took power, not by a constitutional convention   
    or such, but by the courts. The protestors started out demanding   
    the previous constitution be reinstated.   
      
    ----------------------------------------------------------------   
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-25182830   
      
    But it was the deaths of at least 88 people, many of them   
    protesters shot dead by uniformed snipers in 48 hours of   
    bloodshed, that ultimately brought him down.   
    ----------------------------------------------------------------   
      
    AK> Putin is not Hiller, just because Russia is not a fascist   
    AK> Germany.   
      
    AK> Russia doesn't want to rule over the world and   
    AK> topple those governments it doesn't like. It is somebody   
    AK> else.   
      
    Russia maybe not, Putin I'm not so sure of.   
      
     BK>> When Obama declared he was pulling our troops out of Afghanistan   
     BK>> and Iraq the Republicans ranted and raved about how no one would   
      
    ...   
      
    AK> It easy to explain. When you conquer a country _by military   
    AK> invasion_ you, as a rule, can find collaborators only among   
    AK> bastards, traitors and thieves. So, it is no wonder when   
      
    Afghanistan was the base for the 9-11 attack. Iraq was a war for   
    oil. We should have been out of Afghanistan quickly, and never   
    in Iraq. I was talking about the republican reaction to a screw   
    up series of wars, vs doing nothing or something now.   
      
    ...   
      
     BK>> No matter what the status of the Ukraine and it's government,   
     BK>> Russia is clearly an outside invader. Failing to come to their aid   
     BK>> would be a clear sign to Putin that the West really is too weak to   
     BK>> stop him. Not too militarily weak, on that we outweigh them in   
     BK>> spade, but too weak morally.   
      
    AK> It is not correct. Ask people from Israel or the US what an   
    AK> invasion looks like. So far you can't tell of Russian   
    AK> "invasion". People must be very accurate in such things.   
      
    Putin has backed off. However, it certainly appeared he wanted   
    to cut the Ukraine up.   
      
      
    http://tinyurl.com/lsgsoqd   
      
    washingtonpost   
    ousted-ukraine-president-warns-of-civil-war-criticizes-us-for-   
    aiding-current-government   
      
    Yanukovych last appeared in public Feb. 28, in a news   
    conference also in Rostov, when he asserted he was still the   
    legal president of Ukraine and that he was not calling upon   
    Russia to intervene militarily.   
      
    The next day, Russia's parliament authorized President Vladimir   
    Putin to send troops into Ukraine, and soon thereafter Russia   
    asserted that Yanukovych had requested the intervention the day   
    after he spoke to the press.   
      
    ...   
      
    Ousted Ukraine president warns of civil war, criticizes U.S.   
    for aiding current government   
      
    ...   
      
    "The cities are being patrolled by masked gunmen," Yanukovych   
    said in a statement to the press in the southern Russian city   
    of Rostov-on-Don.   
      
    Yanukovych, who read from a statement in Russian and did not   
    take questions, accused the West and the United States of   
    backing fascists in Ukraine - another regular allegation being   
    made by Russian authorities.   
      
    ...   
      
    On March 6, after gunmen took over the parliament building in   
    the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol, a pro-Russian   
    leadership was installed. Then the regional parliament voted   
    behind closed doors for Crimea to leave Ukraine and join   
    Russia, setting a referendum for Sunday to validate their   
    decision.   
      
    Some links to look at.   
      
    Wall street journal   
    http://tinyurl.com/ohlh6ys   
      
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27633117   
      
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution   
      
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
   ... I'm not lost -- I'm "locationally challenged"   
   --- Via Silver Xpress V4.5/P [Reg]   
    * Origin: Fidonet Since 1991 bbs.docsnetservices.com (1:123/140)