...   
      
    JF>>> We could have won that war if we 'wanted to'. Do you really   
      
   BK>>I agree. Only one major difference needed, we had to fight the   
   BK>>war for the benefit of the South Vietnamese, instead of for out   
   BK>>own purposes. If we weren't fighting it for them why were we   
   BK>>there in the first place?   
      
    LL> "Peace with honor" was the only way we could leave Vietnam,   
    LL> according to Richard Nixon.  That is why the war did not end   
      
    Honor requires justice. Nixon did not seek that, so he could   
    never have honor.   
      
    ...   
      
    LL> In summation, here is what happened -   
      
    LL> Richard Nixon lost the war.  Richard Nixon then resigned   
    LL> from office in disgrace.  Gerald Ford became our first   
    LL> appointed President, announcing to the world, "Our long   
    LL> national nightmare has ended." The world applauded.  Then   
    LL> Ford went and pardoned Nixon.  What an idiot.   
      
    The mistake that cost him the presidency. And Ford was a long   
    experienced politician, he should have known better.   
      
    JF>>> think we "lost" the war because the Viet Cong had  a more   
    JF>>> formidable military the the U.S.? We could have wiped them   
      
   BK>>The US military won every major engagement, and pretty much all   
   BK>>the lesser ones.   
      
    LL> Richard Nixon lost the war.  Not the US military.   
      
    JF>>> out any time we pleased. Why didn't we? Do the math. It was   
    JF>>> not economically feasible for the U.S. to pursue the war   
      
   BK>>That is the cost of a 10 year war.   
      
    LL> It would have been a lot shorter, with more lives saved, had   
    LL> Nixon agreed to end the war in 1969.   
      
    Actually, since it began for the US in 1954, it was a 20 year   
    war.   
      
    JF>>> any further. The Viet Nam war was waged simply to gauge   
    JF>>> Soviet response and to keep tabs on their military   
    JF>>> capabilities.   
      
   BK>>That I don't believe. The SU was not giving the NVs enough early   
   BK>>enough to mean anything. By the time they did we had so far   
   BK>>outpaced them they were primative by comparison.   
      
    LL> We had air superiority throughout the war.  We could have   
    LL> bombed all their cities to smithereens had we chosen to do   
    LL> so.  We could have deforested the countryside, had we   
    LL> chosen to do so.  We could have made the whole place   
    LL> totally unliveable, had we chosen to do so.  But none of   
    LL> that would have won the hearts and minds of the Vietnamese   
    LL> people.  And that is what we needed to do, if ever we   
    LL> wanted to do business with them.   
      
    True. However, it's more than doing business. Too many have   
    forgotten what they chose not to remember when it comes to   
    Korea. North and South are one people. When you kill the   
    Northerners, you are killing the families of the Southerners.   
      
    Doing that to soldiers can be justified, doing so   
    indiscriminately cannot.   
      
    JF>>> During that war 100's of newly developed   
    JF>>> weapons were beta tested. Esp as concerns the Air Force.   
      
   BK>>And that is what scared the hell out of the Soviets. Not only   
   BK>>did we put men and money into that war, developed tech and   
   BK>>training and experience that put us far ahead, but we did it all   
   BK>>the while keeping our home economy growing and even reduced the   
   BK>>debt to GDP ratio. All a measure of the superiority of our   
   BK>>system.   
      
    LL> During that time period in history, the US had its client   
    LL> states, the former USSR had their client states.  Each side   
    LL> tried to hold on to its own, while stealing some from the   
    LL> other side.  Neither the US nor the former USSR wanted a   
    LL> nuclear war, as both would have been destroyed (along with   
    LL> their client states and the rest of the world).  So the US   
    LL> and the former USSR did the next best thing. Each side   
    LL> tried to outspend the other building weapons and weapons   
    LL> systems, etc.   
      
    True, but the US did it so much better.   
      
    ...   
      
    BK>> Union. Our economy was so much better than theirs that they went   
    BK>> broke trying to do what we did, and not even coming close. It   
    BK>> took a couple decades, but it destroyed the Soviet Union.   
      
    BK>> And that is something to consider when thinking about the   
    BK>> Vietnam War.   
      
    LL> Richard Nixon lost the war in Vietnam.  But the Cold War   
    LL> continued. Fortunately for us, the former USSR blinked   
    LL> first, having bankrupted itself into oblivion before we did.   
      
    Well, they did it on weapons. We are doing it on medical costs.   
    Not govt medical costs, all medical costs. Our medical spending   
    is pushing 20% of GDP, compared to 8% for much of the rest of   
    the world, and 12% for the most expensive national health care   
    system in the industrial world.   
      
    On top of that, it has been revealed that it isn't spending on   
    the old as they are dying that is so costly, but everyday   
    medical costs. Typically the US patient pays several times more   
    for almost anything than the average patient under national   
    health care systems. That "spends more" includes all spending,   
    including the govt spending for the national health care   
    patients in other countries. We just get hit with higher bills   
    for the same treatment.   
      
    LL> You do realize our economy tanked, never having recovered   
    LL> from the events of 9-11?  I mean, where are those WTC   
      
    9-11 had pretty well nothing to do with the economy tanking. The   
    cost to the economy was actually trivial. Those WTC are the   
    least needed construction you can think of.   
      
    LL> Towers?  There is even talk of demolishing the WTC in New   
    LL> Orleans, as nobody had or has the money to buy it ...   
      
    Since the US sold out it's economy to foreign manufacturers with   
    all the free trade agreements, esp the WTO and IMF and World   
    Bank, why do we need trade centers?   
      
      
      
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
   ... Freedom is more precious than peace.   
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