...   
      
    AK>>> Freedom has never been archived without treason of the   
      
    BK>> What Snowden did is not treason under US law.   
      
    AK>    It depends on who interprets the law.   
      
    True, always has been, but under the law it wasn't treason.   
      
    ...   
      
    BK>> No oppresive power is legitimate. Legal is not legitimate.   
    BK>> Democracy is the only legitimate form of government. It is the only   
    BK>> form under which the people rule themselves.   
      
    AK>    But security services and repressive forces must be   
    AK>    strongly limited by constitution. It must not be that a   
      
    That is true.   
      
    AK>    few people or a group of people would have an unlimited   
    AK>    control over such forces, whose essence is obedience   
    AK>    without questions. Actually, a good democratic society   
    AK>    must free itself from such thoughtless people of order.   
      
    It must be a matter of law, the the enforcers first duty is to   
    obey the constitution and the law themselves. Orders are not an   
    excuse to ignore the law or the constitution.   
      
    ...   
      
    AK>    when in 1993 Eltsin in Russia had given an order to such   
    AK>    people to shell the Russian Parlament from tanks, point   
    AK>    blank. He defeated the parliamentarians, but spilt blood   
    AK>    and had known its taste. Literally in a year he started   
    AK>    the far more bloody war in Chechnya, because he thought   
    AK>    that solving problem by brutal force is a good and   
    AK>    effective way to gain his aims.   
      
    And where is he now? You remember him, but who is he to the rest   
    of the world?   
      
    ...   
      
    BK>> The problem with that is, in the US the underground resistance is   
    BK>> made up of the ones who want to be the dictators. Their primary   
    BK>> driving force is hate and bigotry.   
      
    AK>    I didn't say that criminals must be allowed to do   
    AK>    criminal violence. I just said that they can be defeated   
    AK>    without turning the country into a place where everyone   
    AK>    is under surveillance. As I said, such a thing is a   
    AK>    dander itself, maybe even greater danger for democracy   
    AK>    than some terror attacks.   
      
    That is true, but the people must be the ones to resist the   
    underground tyrants.   
      
    ...   
      
    AK>>> is simple -- great injustice. So, the remedy against Arab   
    AK>>> terrorism is justice, not spying on all the people around the   
    AK>>> world.   
      
    BK>> Pope John Paul II said, "If you want peace, work for justice." That   
    BK>> is my motto on that subject.   
      
    AK>    I like his words, although not many think of them when   
    AK>    they act. For instance, after WWII justice for Jews was   
    AK>    achieved at the expense of Palestinian people, who is a   
    AK>    part of a big Arab nation. Millions of Arabs who lived   
    AK>    in Palestine were even not consulted when some people in   
    AK>    Europe decided their future.   
      
    Pretty much all of the Middle East was divided up that way. Ask   
    yourself, why were a Sunni minority ruling in Iraq? Why were a   
    Shia offshoot minority ruling Syria? Could it be the European   
    rulers felt keeping the government seperate from the people   
    would create client state who would become dependent on them?   
      
    AK>    No peace and prosperity are   
    AK>    built this way. After declaring a two state solution the   
    AK>    UN washed its hands and actually provoked the war by own   
    AK>    inaction. Although, then there were strong forses that   
    AK>    kept the UN from intervention and separation Arab and   
    AK>    Jews. When the Korean war happened the UN acted quite   
    AK>    differently.   
      
    When the Korean War started the major nation opposing   
    intervention, the Soviet Union, was absent when the vote was   
    taken. They were the only ones in a position to stop it, who   
    wanted to stop it.   
      
    ...   
      
    LL>>>> option. As George W. Bush said, we have a War on Terror to fight!   
    LL>>>> You heard that? We must make war on a verb! En garde!   
      
    I thought that wasn't right. Terror is an abstract noun.   
    Terrorize may be a verb, but terror is not.   
      
    AK>>> Ha-ha. And he waged war against poor Afghanistan,   
      
    BK>> Afghanistan was responsible for giving Bin Laden a base. For that   
    BK>> the invasion was justified.   
      
    AK>    In the East there is no more shame than to betray their   
    AK>    guest. Only a poor politician could imagine that the   
    AK>    Taliban would catch Bin Laden so to give him out to the   
    AK>    US, the main ally of Israel, a far more big criminal (as   
    AK>    all the countries in the Middle East think).   
      
    If you guest commits murder you are responsible to turn him   
    over. I doubt even in Afghanistan can you harbor a murderer, esp   
    if he commits murder while your guest.   
      
    AK>    Besides, it was an unrealistic task to catch a small   
    AK>    group of people in the immense mountains of Afghanistan.   
    AK>    The Taliban could not catch Bin Laden even if they   
    AK>    wished to do it, as Karzay.   
      
    The US forces could have caught Bin Laden if Bush hadn't pulled   
    out so many of them. The Taliban could have caught him if they   
    wanted to. Don't over estimate the difficulty, even there it's   
    not difficult with the right people.   
      
    AK>>> although Bin Laden was in his cozy sweet home in Pakistan.   
      
    BK>> Bin Laden was not in Pakistan until after the invasion.   
      
    AK>    But it was easy to guess that he could leave Afghanistan   
    AK>    at any time. So there was no need for bloody invasion   
    AK>    and aggravating the civil war in Afghanistan.   
      
    He could not have left Afghanistan if Bush hadn't pulled out the   
    forces needed to block his exit. They were there but Bush, or,   
    rather his people, pulled them out to prepare to invade Iraq.   
      
    AK>>> And Bush declared that the Taliban are terrorists although they   
    AK>>> had never done any terror acts at that   
      
    BK>> I don't recall Bush declaring the Taliban as terrorists. They were   
    BK>> terrorists to their own people, but the justification for the   
    BK>> invasion was bringing down Bin Laden. Overthrowing the Taliban was   
    BK>> gravy. Unfortunately Bush, and especially Cheney, screwed that up   
    BK>> badly.   
      
    AK>    I don't think that they terrorized their own people   
      
    I do. Dictatorships never hold power any other way.   
      
    AK>    before the the American led invasion. In the Afghanistan   
    AK>    of that time there was a usual civil war between north   
    AK>    and south -- so every side tried to cause as mush harm   
    AK>    to its enemy as it could. Terrorism is not a correct   
    AK>    word. At present time this word became misused very   
    AK>    much. And in many places it helps freedom oppression.   
      
    They terrorized the people, but that's not terror under current   
    usage.   
      
    Funny that.   
      
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
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