Hello Alexander,   
      
    JF>>>> Wow, you guys are still here. Last time I logged on here I think   
    JF>>>> Peter Brady was still with us. What about ole John Wilson? Is he   
    JF>>>> still around? I still have my old rig tucked away in a box. A   
    JF>>>> 286, 512k ram, 2400 baud modem, 5 1/4 inch disks, and monochrome   
    JF>>>> screen (Gotta love those green letters) and 40mb, full height,   
    JF>>>> hard disk, which I sometimes use as a boat anchor. :-)   
      
    JF>>>> If you guys wanna lock horns on some hot topics where the debate   
    JF>>>> is viewed by 100s, possibly 1000s, go to Wikipedia and check out   
    JF>>>> the talk pages on some of the pages like '2003 invasion of Iraq',   
    JF>>>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:2003_invasion_of_Iraq)   
      
    JF>>>> 'Separation of church and state':   
    JF>>>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Separation_of_church_and_stat   
    JF>>>> e) In any case it's nice to know not everything is washed away by   
    JF>>>> the tides of change.   
      
    ak>>> The quotation system of forums are so poor and miserable; it makes   
    ak>>> impossible to have a long deep discussions as people have had in   
    ak>>> Fidonet. Going to Web forums is degradation for a discussion.   
    ak>>> Well, probably such a thing is possible in Usenet if you have a   
    ak>>> good NNTP client.   
      
    ak>>> Just look at my answer "Re: Clandestine activity is a holy cow of   
    ak>>> democracy" from August 6. The text in the message itself is piece   
    ak>>> of art! ;-)   
      
    JF>> Nonsense. The forum works fine for 99% of the people who   
    JF>> participate. Every message is signed by the user and each new entry   
    JF>> is indented from the one above it, so only the idiots who need road   
    JF>> signs every ten feet are left confused. Piece of art? Are we having   
    JF>> a discussion or admiring text?   
      
   AK>   
    ak> A discussion text must look nice, too. Especially, a good quoting is   
    ak> important when a discussion is written by many persons. In this case it   
    ak> is important to see clearly the authorship of every paragraph, every   
    ak> line, because it is very important to shorten opponents phases as much   
    ak> as possible, so that all the discussion was before your eyes. That is   
    ak> why, despite what you had said, you cannot find in web forums an example   
    ak> of a long, deep, clever discussion -- only the discussions that sound   
    ak> like dog's barking or sparrow's twitting.   
      
   The form of debate most frequently used in fidonet forums is didactic,   
   rather than a true discussion or exchange of ideas in essay form.  The   
   software used makes it easy to quote and delete whatever text one wants   
   to include or exclude.  I am not saying that this is the best form of   
   debate.  Only that it is the most convenient, given the software and   
   means of communication.   
      
   AK>   
    ak> In other words, the conferences like this one is an ideal place for   
    ak> discussions.   
      
   It can be.  Not that it is.  Much is dependent on the participants   
   themselves.  Along with the moderator/facilitator.   
      
   AK>   
    ak> But unfortunately people on Earth have changed.   
      
   We eat better.  We put on nicer clothes.  Most men shave, along   
   with some women.  People continue to have sex, with others as well   
   as themselves.  And sometimes within oh never mind there are no   
   gays and lesbians in Russia ...   
      
   AK>   
    ak> Signing in to the Fidonet, using cool client programs is too difficult for   
    ak> modern (even young) people.   
      
   The dumbing down of America reached its zenith with the erection   
   of George W. Bush.  And since then, look at what Fidonet has become.   
   Much, much smaller than it ever was before.  Kind of like GWB's penis.   
      
   AK>Just look at the quotation style of your message to me!   
      
   Er, I'm not sure I want to go there.  But since you started it ...   
      
    ak> -----Beginning of the citation-----   
    AK>>>> ;=) Well, well, who doubts around the world that American history   
    AK>>>> books tell that the Vietnam war was victorious for the US?   
    AK>>>> Propaganda doesn't allow the opposite, especially if the opposite   
    AK>>>> is humiliating.   
      
    JF>>> Actually, American history books do not describe Vietnam as a   
    JF>>> victory for America. And we know the US lost the war. Not all know   
    JF>>> it, but most of us do.   
      
      
    JF>>> We could have won that war if we 'wanted to'. Do you really think   
    JF>>> we "lost" the war because the Viet Cong had a more formidable   
    JF>>> military the the U. S.? We could have wiped them out any time we   
    JF>>> pleased.   
      
    ->> Good argument, of a computer gamer. ;-/   
      
    ak> Poor reply, even for a computer gamer. The US could have turned up the   
    ak> heat any number of ways. The war was purposely dragged out for several   
    ak> reasons, mostly concerning the (then) USSR, who was supplying the North.   
    ak> -----The end of the citation-----   
      
   The French had been there, and told us not to get involved.  But did   
   we listen?  Nooooooo.  We knew better.  We had the guns.  We had the   
   bombs.  We had the manpower.  We thought we were like Jim Morrison,   
   our boys having wankers just like his, and could do anything!  And look   
   what it got us.  58,000+ dead American soldiers, hundreds of thousands   
   more maimed/wounded, too many broken families to count.  Along with   
   our idol Jim Morrison lying dead in a bathtub in Paris, France.   
      
   AK>   
    ak> If somebody wants to participate in our discussion he/she would have   
    ak> a pain in his/her ass because making quotes from such messages is very   
    ak> difficult (well, for those people who don't use a cool Quoter program   
    ak> made by me :))   
      
   A most excellent program, but it still takes somebody to type in   
   messages.  :)   
      
   AK>   
    ak> So, modern people prefer to go in places where interface so easy that   
    ak> every dog is capable to start barking there. Generally, it is another   
    ak> explanation for the poor intellectual content of web forums.   
      
   Like I said earlier in this message, the dumbing down of America   
   reached its peak with the erection of a moron president.  I wrote   
   erection rather than election because GWB was never legitimate   
   elected president of anything.  But, as you well know, everything   
   in Texas is big.  And Texans love to brag.  So now you know how   
   GWB beat Ann Richards for Governor of Texas ...   
      
   Yeah, I know.  That was pretty low.  Two alcoholics running for   
   Governor of Texas, one having gone through rehab the other never   
   admitting to being a drunk.   
      
   We found out the truth about George W. Bush when he showed up at   
   the White House with a black eye after he got beaten up by a pretzel.   
      
   AK>   
    ak> No new young generation has come to Fidonet. Current Fidonet/Usenet   
    ak> users are old, cool guys, who have already discussed every possible   
    ak> interesting subject many times. That is why they are mostly silent now.   
    ak> You can see in Fidonet only messages written by the people who are   
    ak> always young. ;=)   
      
   You got that right.  We are all Clint Eastwood wannabes.  :)   
      
   "Make my day!" - Dirty Harry   
      
   --Lee   
      
   --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb   
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)