...   
      
    AK>>>> The state must not develop such technical instruments that make   
    AK>>>> clandestine activity impossible. Because it is a matter of   
    AK>>>> democracy survival.   
      
    BK>>> All true, and irrelevant. Any state that wants that control will   
    BK>>> develop the technology to give it that control. The only answer is   
    BK>>> to develop an electorate that will kick out any government that   
    BK>>> tries to gain that much control.   
      
    BK>>> Dictatorships will try, and all that will stop them is their   
    BK>>> inability to do so, or a populous that will overthrow them.   
      
   AK>>   
    ak>> Such things have been very possible until technology was not too   
    ak>> high. It is like Vietnam war - the victorious Vietnamese resistance had   
    ak>> sense only when American technology to kill and spy was not at a very   
    ak>> high level. The Vietnamese were able to defend themselves and kick out   
    ak>> the Americans.   
      
    LL> You've got it all wrong.  The Americans won the war, not the   
    LL> Vietnamese.  That is why the Vietnamese call it The   
    LL> American War, not The Vietnamese War.  However, I must   
    LL> clarify a few things about the war that you may not be   
    LL> aware of -   
      
    The US won the war, and lost the peace. We won the war we   
    wanted, not the war we fought. Wining the battles did not win   
    the hearts and minds of the people.   
      
    LL> After the Americans won the war, the South Vietnamese Army   
    LL> went on to lose it.  How did the SVA manage that?  It is   
      
    The leadership was corrupt, and the common soldiers did not have   
    what they need to win.   
      
    LL> really quite easy to understand.  The SVA were trained by   
    LL> the French, and the SVA officers had lots of American   
    LL> money.  When their brethren from the North Vietnamese Army   
    LL> arrived, the privates in the SVA fled into the hills   
    LL> without firing a shot,   
      
    No, they fought, but they really didn't have a chance.   
      
    LL> and the officers in the SVA paid   
    LL> boat owners to take them to Hong Kong (and other exotic   
      
    Well off officers, well connected officers.   
      
    LL> destinations).  Of course, the high command in the SVA had   
    LL> more American money than everybody else and were able to   
    LL> buy a plane ticket to America.   
      
    And that is where we screwed up. We left the rulers in Vietnam   
    with the ability to run a corrupt system and steal from the   
    people. That plus steal from the assistance we provided.   
      
    ...   
      
   AK>>And such a scenario will be impossible in the near future, when   
   AK>>the US technology to kill will be like an army of Terminators.   
      
    Not likely anytime soon.   
      
    LL> High tech breaks down easily, and in many cases does not   
      
    True. Esp when maintenance is low on the priority list.   
      
    LL> work at all. Not only that, but low tech can often get the   
    LL> job done twice as fast, with minimal time needed to learn.   
      
    Again, True. Rumsfeld thought he had it all figured out, high   
    tech hardware and strategic thinking. The Pentagon knew all   
    that, and also knew that wasn't enough. Taking the country was   
    easy, holding it was not. The pentagon told him, but he refused   
    to believe it.   
      
    LL> Americans thought they could take over and subdue the   
    LL> people of Afghanistan in a matter of weeks. Ditto with the   
      
    Even trying to subdue was the mistake. Taking out Bin Laden and   
    his Afghan hosts was reasonable, but it ain't our country, we   
    got no business subduing it.   
      
    LL> invasion of Iraq.  However, even with the best equipped and   
    LL> best trained army in the world, the American military was   
    LL> unable to truly conquer either the people of Afghanistan or   
    LL> the people of Iraq.  Why?  Because when Americans are   
    LL> finished doing what they do, Americans go home, while the   
    LL> people in those countries never leave.   
      
    And that is the reality I learned long ago. A force that can   
    pack up and leave has much less motivation than a force that has   
    no place to go.   
      
    LL> Germans are still in Germany, even after the Americans left.   
    LL> Japanese are still in Japan, even after the Americans left.   
    LL> Koreans are still in Korea, even after the Americans left.   
    LL> Vietnamese are still in Vietnam, even after the Americans   
    LL> left. Iraqis are still in Iraq, even after the Americans   
    LL> left. Afghans will still be in Afghanistan, even after the   
    LL> Americans have left.  Yes, I know.  We should have learned   
    LL> from Englishmen and Russians, who also had to learn their   
    LL> lesson the hard way.   
      
    The first lesson any democracy must learn, if you invade a   
    country, remember you have to fight for the people of that   
    country as much as any other objective.   
      
    ...   
      
   AK>>But a spying and military technology makes things differ with   
   AK>>every year passing.   
      
    LL> How many years did it take to bring Osama bin Laden to   
    LL> justice? Even with all our spying and technology, it took   
    LL> us decades.   
      
    Bin Laden was not brought to justice, justice was brought to Bin   
    Laden.   
      
    LL> We got lucky being able to track one of ObL's   
    LL> couriers.  And even luckier to get a team inside the   
    LL> compound where ObL was holed up.   
      
    LL> The point is, spying and technology only serve to make it   
    LL> easier to do a task.  And even then, there are problems,   
    LL> some of which impossible to overcome.   
      
    Send in the Marines. They will tell you, "The difficult we do   
    now, the impossible takes a little longer.   
      
   AK>>   
    ak>> Is is a very wrong idea to suppose that special forces, secret   
    ak>> services are consisted of usual people, and, therefore, they will never   
    ak>> wring people's hands. In reality, such forces are mostly amoral, they   
      
    That part is quite false.   
      
    ak>> are proud of their discipline and of their readiness to carry out any   
    ak>> orders. They give an oath and they must obey. In addition, military   
    ak>> people as a rule are not people of high intellect.   
      
    In a well run society, military people are the people. They are   
    as intelligent as any.   
      
    ak>>  Such people are not interested in politics,   
      
    The military are as interested in politics as any. After all,   
    War is politics by other means, and they are the other means.   
      
    ak>> they easily can be persuaded that they do right   
    ak>> things and save the country, whereas they actually oppress it. In Russia   
    ak>> now, millions of strong, young, ignorant people are working in special   
    ak>> forces (OMON), police - and it is very dangerous for democracy, because   
    ak>> any public movement can be suppressed easily.   
      
    LL> Soldiering is an honorable profession.  Soldiers are not   
    LL> amoral, but in a way must do their jobs in an amoral   
      
    Oh, you knew that.   
      
    LL> manner.  I did not say immoral.  When inducted in the army,   
    LL> a soldier has to be taught to kill - to do something   
    LL> totally against his/her true nature.  The soldier is sent   
      
    Oh, you knew that.   
      
    LL> off to war, to kill others.  A most reprehensible thought.   
    LL> When the soldier returns home, he/she often has no help or   
    LL> support from his/her (military) family.  The former soldier   
    LL> is left to defend for himself/herself a way of life he/she   
    LL> has long forgotten.   
      
    Oh yeah, and the government makes excuses.   
      
    LL> Many military people are highly intelligent.  Especially the   
    LL> officers, as they know better than to pick up a gun and   
    LL> march into enemy territory.  Better to let the 19-year-old   
    LL> privates do that.   
      
    Captain and below aren't all that up on that. Even Majors maybe   
    not.   
      
    LL> Some folks use the military as a means for getting into   
    LL> politics. Serve a few years, get out, earn a few bucks,   
    LL> raise a family, run for president.  John F. Kennedy did   
    LL> that.   
      
    In WWII serving was what you did.   
    ...   
    LL> Ronald Reagan was smarter than them all, making training   
    LL> films in the Army, as well as riding a horse.   
      
    Funny, and too damn true.   
      
    LL> Today in America we have a mercenary army.  Nobody is   
      
    Damn straight.   
      
    LL> drafted. Some politicians want to change that.   
      
    Which they should.   
      
    LL> Not by   
    LL> re-instating the draft, as that would be unpopular and get   
    LL> them kicked out of office, but rather by passing a law   
    LL> mandating community service. Using a carrot and stick   
    LL> approach, these politicans want to encourage youngsters to   
    LL> join the military as their community service, the trade-off   
    LL> being a free ticket to college after completing their   
    LL> duties as Terminator.  But I am getting ahead of myself ...   
      
    They should have to serve in the military. There is little in   
    the way of community service they can do that is worth while.   
      
   AK>>In short, I want to say that in future, an effective people's   
   AK>>resistance can be as impossible as Vietnamese resistance if Vietnam   
   AK>>war would happen in future.   
      
    ...   
      
   AK>>That's why a democratic society must prevent itself from being   
   AK>>fully supervised, from having to a strong oppressive machinery.   
      
    LL> Americans never want to think for themselves.  Americans   
    LL> love having others tell them what to do.  Remember,   
    LL> Americans live in a Nanny state, with Uncle Sam being the   
    LL> Nanny.   
      
    The US is less a nanny state than a Rich People's resort. The   
    average American works hard and gets too little for it.   
      
    ...   
      
    LL> The Fear Factor is what GWB (and now Obama) thought would   
    LL> keep the people happy.  After the events of 9-11, GWB kept   
    LL> crying wolf thoughout his presidency, claiming terrorists   
      
    The Fear Factor is the primary tool of the dictators.   
      
    ...   
      
    LL> In majority Muslim countries, Muslims divide themselves   
    LL> into two groups - high Muslims and low Muslims.  High   
    LL> Muslims is a term describing Muslims who are religious, or   
    LL> good.  Low Muslims is a term describing Muslims who are not   
    LL> religious, or bad.   
      
    None of this sounds the least bit true.   
      
    LL> A jihad, or cleansing, ensues between   
    LL> these two groups so that there are no more low Muslims.   
      
    Since less religious Muslims are by far the majority, why aren't   
    there no more more religious Muslims?   
      
    ...   
      
    LL> "A house divided against itself cannot stand." - Muslim   
    LL> proverb   
      
    Actually, that's true.   
      
    ...   
      
   AK>>But real freedom demands some price.   
      
    LL> Freedom is just another word for having nothing left to   
    LL> lose.   
      
    Or Freedom is just another word for being willing to lose   
    everything else.   
      
    ...   
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
   ... Zen Druids practice Transcendental Vegetation.   
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