Hi, Lee Lofaso!
I read your message from 29.07.2013 23:30
about Clandestine activity is a holy cow of democracy.
ak>> Anyway, Snowden did his best.
LL> Snowden swore a national security oath. Snowden violated that oath
LL> by leaking information to others, ovbiously without authorization
LL> from his superiors. That is called treason, punishable by death.
LL> However, our president, being a nice guy, has promised the
LL> Russians, as well as the rest of the world, that Uncle Sam has a
LL> soft heart, and promised not execute the traitor.
Freedom has never been archived without treason of the oppressive
regime. Because, when fighters for freedom overthrow a legitimate, but
oppressive power they commit an act of high treason. And naturally, they
were often hanged, shot etc. Lincoln was a traitor for the slaveholding
society that brought him up. French revolution had executed the king and
queen. No doubt it was an act of treason.
In other words if the state authority does ugly things it cannot be
stopped without treason. Another matter is - who are those people for
whom the treason is done? If the treason is made for the world it is
great; if for money, and many people suffered -- it is a dirty trick.
ak>> The state must NOT have full control of its citizens.
LL> That is not the issue. Every state has secrets to keep. Those who
LL> swear a national security oath are sworn to keep those secrets.
LL> Snowden swore a national security oath, and subsequently broke that
LL> oath. Therefore, Snowden is a traitor to his country.
It depends on the point of view. For some people he is a traitor, but
for some he is saving freedom. It can happen that in future an
underground resistance and democracy can be one thing. Such things
happened in the past. That's why it is an extremely bad idea to create
mechanism for rooting out underground resistance completely. Just in
case any democratic society must preserve some "woods" where Robin Hoods
could hide and fight.
ak>> The state must not have power to suppress all clandestine
ak>> activity.
LL> Again, that is not the issue. Every state has secrets. And some
LL> secrets must be protected. Especially secrets concerning national
LL> security. Snowden swore a national security oath. Snowden violated
LL> that oath. Snowden is a traitor.
Snowden defends Holy cow of democracy - freedom, the possibility not
to be traced everywhere and every time. Without such a freedom, freedom
can come to an end at some pretty day. People don't understand that a
free society must imply possibility of resistance. If everything is
under control no real resistance can exist - we begin see it in Russia
now.
ak>> The state must not develop such technical instruments that make
ak>> clandestine activity impossible.
LL> The state has a duty and an obligation to do whatever it takes to
LL> protect itself and its citizens in the name of national security.
LL> That includes developing technical instruments that make
LL> clandestine activity possible.
You probably didn't read the place where I said that there is no
guarantee that an oppressive regime cannot hijack power.
Well, abstractly, I retell my story in other words, of a movie
script: The US state security organization has made a robot-terminator
who has to kill all the underground opposition and criminals. But in
some time oligarchs and moneybags pay some money to elect their
candidates for the presidency, senate etc, to make themselves more
powerful and rich. People tries to organize resistance, but after coming
to power the moneybags order the terminator to eliminate all democratic
opposition, and it will be easy done because the state knows all about
all and has a necessary totalitarian mechanism to suppress any
underground activity.
ak>> Because it is a matter of democracy survival.
LL> It is a matter of survival, not just of democracy, but also of the
LL> human race. Just think what would happen if terrorists had the
LL> means to develop weapons of mass destruction, or even nuclear
LL> bombs. It would be not only bye-bye Moscow, but also bye-bye world.
Such a spying technology that was disclosed by Snowden doesn't allow
to prevent terrors acts! Maximum it can help trace terrorists after a
committed terror attack. Or it can provoke a young man to do a terror
act and then arrest him and his friends before the attack.
Terrorism can be killed only the same way how it was born! The US
people must understand why Arabs that were so far from terrorism until
WWII became so close to terrorism after the war. The reason is simple --
great injustice. So, the remedy against Arab terrorism is justice, not
spying on all the people around the world.
ak>> Suppose, the state controls its people to such an extent, that it
ak>> knows all people connections. This means that a member of
ak>> clandestine organization cannot hide anywhere among his friends,
ak>> acquaintances and even people with whom he once had a phone talk.
LL> Don't be silly. Maxwell Smart never left home without his shoe
LL> phone.
I've already said that system is not able to prevent terror attacks.
So, calling it an instrument against terror attacks is a foolish idea.
If Al Qaeda has a nuclear bomb it will blow it up despite the fact that
that Americans are kept under surveillance. The possibility to be
tracked after the attack scares them not.
LL> Allowing terrorists and bad guys to run and hide is not an option.
LL> As George W. Bush said, we have a War on Terror to fight! You heard
LL> that? We must make war on a verb! En garde!
Ha-ha. And he waged war against poor Afghanistan, although Bin Laden
was in his cozy sweet home in Pakistan. And Bush declared that Talibs
are terrorists although they had never done any terror acts at that
time. Actually there were hundreds of terrorists, but then became
millions.
Bye, Lee!
Alexander Koryagin
fido7.debate 2013
--- FIDOGATE 5.1.7ds
* Origin: Pushkin's BBS (2:5020/2140.2)
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