Hello Lee,   
      
   On Sat 2013-Jan-05 01:48, Lee Lofaso (2:203/2) wrote to Richard Webb:   
      
   LL> Some folks need to be taken out of society.  Not for a limited   
   LL> period of time, but until the day they die.  Emotionally, it might   
   LL> make me feel good, for a little while, to have the state execute   
   LL> them (doesn't really matter by what method of execution, only that   
   LL> said execution is carried out).  However, intellectually I would   
   LL> feel far better knowing the creep will be spending a very long   
   LL> period of time (hopefully decades) inside either a maximum security   
   LL> prison or, if they are nuts, at an insititute for the ciminally   
   LL> insane.  In either case, the only way they get out is inside of a   
   LL> pine box (or body bag).   
      
   Okay, so long as they don't endanger even normal folks who   
   are sentenced to such institutions for nonviolent crimes, or those who can be   
   rehabilitated.   
      
      
   LL> The mental health infrastructure needs a total overhaul.  And a   
   LL> whole lot of more funding than it is presently getting to keep it   
   LL> going.  Executing crazy people is not the answer.  We need to study   
   LL> those folks.  Find out what makes them tick.  And then, maybe, we   
   LL> can identify others who have the same problem.  And help them,   
   LL> before they hurt others and themselves.   
      
   On most of this we agree.  But, as our society becomes more   
   densely packed letting some of these folks go unsupervised   
   is a clear and rpesent danger to the rest of us.  I'm not a   
   social scientist or anything like that, I'm a musician and   
   audio technician.  I have a right, as do you, to live going   
   about my life without being endangered by those folks.  Many of them are   
   dangerous to themselves, and the rest of us,   
   and, of course each other.  No easy answers here, wish I had some.   
      
   RW>I understand that these folks have a right to live in the   
   RW>least restrictive environment possible, but public safety should   
   RW>be a prime consideration when determining this.   
      
   LL> Up until the 1930s all we did was lock crazy folks up in   
   LL> mental institutions.  We did not know what else to do with them, the   
   LL> only therapy being available to them at the time being "talk   
   LL> therapy", and lobotomies.  "Talk therapy" rarely worked, and   
   LL> lobotomies never worked.  But then something happened.  New   
   LL> discoveries were made.  By the Germans.  Nazis in particular. And   
   LL> American psychiatrists and psychologists were excited,   
   LL> quickly adopting those methods as soon as they were able to   
   LL> get their hands on those Nazi doctors.   
      
   Acknowledged, and, before that, we incarcerated them in our   
   regular jails and prisons, where they were mistreated badly. Imho it's as much   
   mistreatment to turn them loose when they   
   need follow up care that they really don't get.  Dumping   
   them on places such as the one where I worked is not an   
   answer for them, or the other folks who used the services of that agency   
   because they had nowhere else to turn for help.   
      
      
      
   LL> Today, in America and throughout the world, drugs are used   
   LL> to treat mental patients.  And rather than keeping them locked up   
   LL> forever at a mental institution, mental patients are placed in   
   LL> communities, under close supervision by trained personnel. The   
   LL> patients take their meds, think they are well, quit taking their   
   LL> meds, and then have another episode.  Once the social   
   LL> worker finds out about it, the former mental patient is sent back to   
   LL> the hospital where shrinks have to convince him/her   
   LL> to take his/her meds.  Once that is accomplished, the mental patient   
   LL> is again returned to his/her community ...   
      
   iN many cases, but in others, those who should have been in   
   programs that allowed them to live within the community but   
   under supervision didn't exist.  Therefore, they got dumped   
   on us, because we'd at least for a very low price give them   
   a shower once a day, three hots and a bunk.  When they   
   didn't take their meds etc. we were stuck with the problems   
   they caused us, requiring us to call for the authorities to   
   then remove them, right back to where they came from, often   
   then having to either repair the damage they caused, or send the injured   
   person to the emergency room.   
      
   The individual i mentioned was a problem to just about   
   everyone on the staff there.  MOre than one of us told the   
   director we didn't want him back there.  But, the state   
   mental hospital kept dumping him on us, because they had no   
   way of placing him in a supervised program outside their   
   institution.  Obviously he wasn't doing anything productive   
   that was beneficial to anybody.  What family he may have had not just wasn't   
   equipped to deal with him, but obviously had no interest in him.   
      
   But then, we're talking about a nut job who shot up a   
   school.  Probably a similar case to this guy I'd bet.  Would fixing him up a   
   date with old sparky be any loss to anybody? I understand why the supreme   
   court has ruled that the   
   mentally ill can't be lawfully executed, because if they can be all sorts of   
   abuses can take place.  But, when they   
   commit acts such as the one under discussion here the rights of the populace   
   trump the rights of the individual.  We have a right to see that the danger is   
   removed, however that is   
   done.  I'd prefer that it's done humanely, but, if that   
   can't be accomplished I won't shed too many tears if it's   
   taken care of in some other way.   
      
      
      
   Regards,   
              Richard   
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    * Origin:  (1:116/901)