HI bob,   
      
   On Sun 2012-Nov-04 03:23, BOB KLAHN (1:123/140) wrote to RICHARD WEBB:   
      
    RC>> That employer provided healthcare came across as a benefit   
    RC>> to attract and retain good help.   
      
    RC>> Keep this in mind as you all discuss Obamacare as the best   
    RC>> thing since the formation of the solar system.   
      
    RW> There was competition for good workers, but with frozen   
    RW> wages other ways had to be found to compete for workers.   
    RW> HEalth care and other benefits packages proliferated.   
      
    RW> IN turn, those health care benefits meant that people could   
    RW> afford care who otherwise wouldn't.  Medical research took   
    RW> off, new techniques and technologies were developed.  Just   
    RW> go shake it, and fruit fell from the money tree.   
      
   BK>  I made that point 15some years ago. A local on the BBS said  health   
   BK> insurance was responsible for higher medical care costs.  He said if   
   BK> we didn't have insurance the costs would be a lot  lower. I said   
   BK> sure they would, cause we wouldn't have all those  treatments the   
   BK> medical companies developed because somebody was  going to pay for   
   BK> them.   
      
   Yeup!  That research don't happen because somebody felt warm and fuzzy today.    
   Research often happens because there's a   
   payoff at the other end potentially.   
      
   In fact, a mailing list of audio professionals has had a   
   long running thread about who drives the research train when it comes to   
   research into human perception, etc.  The   
   product developers and manufacturers often drive the   
   research through what gets funded and what doesn't.  There   
   hasn't been real major effort put into how we perceive what   
   our electronics produce for our ears to hear since the   
   breakup of At&T.  Ma Bell did that research to improve   
   telephony, but since the breakup nobody is doing that kind   
   of research.  YEs you get some toward better hearing aids,   
   but ...   
      
      
    RW> industry goes to the lowest cost manufacturers.  That's why   
    RW> your Apple product isn't made in the USA.  Nor is your TV   
    RW> set, your microwave oven, or your kids' toys.  The computer   
    RW> on which you're reading this wouldn't be sitting in front   
    RW> of you if you were waiting for it to be made in the USA.   
      
   BK>  Mine is so old it might have been made in USA.   
      
   BK>  However, your point is valid, and that is why we need to end the    
   BK> free trade agreements, and put tarriffs on imports from cheap  labor   
   BK> countries.   
      
   Good luck with that!   
      
    RW> Those lifesaving medical techniques and technologies aren't   
    RW> going to be available close to you if we don't have either   
      
   BK>  They wouldn't be available at all in a great many case. Not  enough   
   BK> rich people to justify the research costs.   
      
   My point exactly.  There's a reason grandma got a new knee   
   that gave her back her mobility, and even if Grandma had   
   millions to spend on it there wouldn't be a new knee to   
   replace the bone and cartilage one which was worn out if   
   there wasn't a whole lotta sales potential thanks to a   
   burgeoning number of elderly who could afford it, because   
   all they had to do was fill out a form and pay the co-pay.   
   The surgeon who redid Grandma's knees probably made enough   
   on the procedure to send his lady to Vegas for a weekend.   
      
    RW> This is why I commented to John the other day that we have   
    RW> a choice, find a way to pay for it, or go back to 19th   
    RW> century levels of health care.  IF our employers can't   
    RW> afford to provide it as a benefit, then the only other   
    RW> entity which can possibly step into the gap is the federal   
    RW> government.   
      
   BK>  Which would be a good place for having that "fair tax", a flat  tax   
   BK> on sales.   
      
   Yeah I can relate, and, no exemptions.  IF you buy it you   
   pay the tax.  Years ago I wouldn't have liked that idea, but a sales tax is   
   imho very fair.  The big consumers are the   
   big payers.  You can't afford to pay it, cut back your   
   consumption fool!   
      
    RW> I have some real philosophical problems with big   
    RW> government, but there are just some things that only   
    RW> government can do effectively, if we force it to actually   
    RW> be accountable and responsible.  Can it do that, or will it   
    RW> become just another political football to be kicked around?   
    RW>  IF the later then the people lose.   
      
   BK>  IF the government would put some of the big money crooks in  prison   
   BK> there would be more jobs and income for the small   
   BK>  money workers, and less crime in the first place.   
      
   Yeah I know but it's more dramatic to bust some guy for   
   smoking something in his pipe you don't like, even though   
   that guy's sitting in his living room not bothering anybody. I'll bet you a   
   lot of those big derivative screw everybody   
   deals were done with a few lines of cocaine being snorted   
   while the dealmakers gathered.  IF you haven't heard it,   
   grab hold of Frank Zappa's song "cocaine decisions" and give it a listen.   
      
   Regards,   
              Richard   
   ... Love is being owned by a rottweiler!   
   ---   
    * Origin:  (1:116/901)