Hello John,   
      
    BK>> Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Remember?   
      
    JM>> Is in the Preamble and has NO weight of Law.   
      
   "Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" is in the   
   Declaration of Independence, not in the Preamble to the   
   US Constitution.  Although the Declaration of Independence   
   has no weight of law, it does form the basis of what was   
   to become the US Constitution.   
      
    BK>> It has moral weight. Much of what you oppose does have weight in   
    BK>> law,   
      
   JM>So you say.   
      
   The Preamble is part of the US Constitution.  What the Preamble   
   does is set limitations on the US Constution itself.  How far can   
   government extend its power?  What limitations are there, or can   
   there be?  With the later addition of the Bill of Rights, the US   
   Constitution becomes a human rights document.   
      
    BK>> but I am supporting it because of it's moral weight.   
      
   JM>Ok, So what.   
      
   Without any moral weight the US Constitution would be just   
   a "goddamn piece of paper" - as a former president is alleged   
   to have said.  IOW, the federal government would be able to   
   whatever it wants, same as a dictatorship, with no checks and   
   balances to keep it honest.   
      
    BK>> So, do you believe in the conservative health care plan, die   
    BK>> quietly?   
      
    JM>> DO you believe that is the conservative plan?   
      
    BK>> Yes.   
      
   JM>Then nothing anyone says to you will make any difference.   
      
   Their real plan is for po' folks to "die quickly".  :)   
      
    BK>> At least, that is the plan you seem to advocate. And that   
    BK>> will be the result if the right wing plans actually supported in   
    BK>> congress are enacted.   
      
   JM>I haven't advocated for any plan other than the private plan I have.   
      
   Burt Reynolds had the best plan of all -   
      
   "All insurance is scam." - Burt Reynolds, in the movie "Deliverance"   
      
   Get shot in the leg by a rifle not his own, go to a hospital, claim   
   it was self-inflicted.  His friend was shot in the back with an arrow,   
   also self-inflicted, the bow and arrow not his own.  Great movie.   
      
    BK>> Non-sequitur. NO one is talking about any free service.   
      
    JM>> Yeah I know the doctors get paid.   
      
    JM>> That is such  a shallow dodge.   
      
    BK>> No, your claim to "free service" is the shallow dodge.   
      
   JM>That's just it Bob it isn't free.   
      
   The best things in life are free.  Or should be, anyway.   
      
    BK>> Given a society with low unemployment, and immigration under control,   
      
   JM>Immigration is FAR from being under control.   
      
   Immigration is less a problem today than it was four years ago.   
      
    BK>> everyone will pay his way .   
      
   JM>No they will not. The 50% +/- who pay no federal income tax will   
   JM>still get free to them health care, that others will be responsible   
   JM>for paying.   
      
   A progressive income tax is much fairer than a sales tax or   
   value added tax.  And let's not forget about payroll taxes that   
   most workers have to pay.  The cost of quality health care has   
   risen to the point that fewer and fewer people can afford it,   
   assuming they can get it at all.  And for most folks, dying   
   is not an option.  So who is going to pay for their health   
   care when they need it?  It is not a question of if, but rather   
   of when.  Letting people die is not our way.  We are Americans.   
   Not cold-blooded killers.   
      
    BK>> except the most extreme handicapped.   
      
   JM>And those people I don't mind helping.   
      
   We handicap ourselves by not helping each other.   
      
    BK>> So, it won't be free service, just paid for.   
      
   JM>By Me and 1000's like me.   
      
   Thank you, John.  We really do appreciate your generous contribution.   
      
    BK>> OTOH, someone has to provide you with fire protection, police   
    BK>> protection, military protection, and far more forms of   
    BK>> protection than any of us really know. Next time you fly on an   
    BK>> airliner just hope the government is still providing you with   
    BK>> protection on aircraft.   
      
    JM>> Those are whole different issues.   
      
    BK>> The principle is the same, you require others provide those   
    BK>> services.   
      
    JM>> And I an willing to pay for those. I am not willing to pay   
    JM>> for someone to sorry to take care of their own healthcare's   
    JM>> medical bills.   
      
    BK>> Like I said, that's the "die quietly" health care plan.   
      
   JM>Nothing like that.   
      
   "Die Quickly" is more like it.   
      
    JM>> Not really, Take the case of the local Volunteer Fire   
    JM>> Departments where there is a yearly fee to support the   
    JM>> department. If you don't pay the fee the VFD can and should   
    JM>> let the property burn.   
      
    BK>> Which doesn't really answer anything. You may pay a portion of   
    BK>> the VFD's cost, but it's a small portion. You need others to pay   
    BK>> the rest, if you want the service to exist at all.   
      
   JM>And I do pay, along with most of the people in the coverage area.   
   JM>We support the VFD and would expect them to come if we need them. If   
   JM>my neighbor has not given a dollar in the 10 years that he has lived   
   JM>there, He should expect  his house to go up in smoke.   
      
   Neil Armstrong would have you strung up and skinned alive   
   for that comment.  Had it not been for my cousin, Ed White,   
   his entire family would have gone up in smoke.   
      
   Ed White and Neil Armstrong were next door neighbors.  The night   
   before the tragic Apollo 1 fire that took his life, White saved the   
   Armstrong family, the house burning to the ground.  Neil Armstrong   
   was away at the time, being a test pilot.   
      
   Ed White would most likely have been the first man to step foot   
   on the Moon rather than Neil Armstrong, but for Neil Armstrong and   
   his family real hero will always be Ed White.   
      
   --Lee   
      
   --- MesNews/1.06.00.00-gb   
    * Origin: news://felten.yi.org (2:203/2)