BK>>>>   Life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. Remember?   
      
    JM>>> Is in the Preamble and has NO weight of Law.   
      
    BK>>   It has moral weight. Much of what you oppose does have weight in   
    BK>>   law,   
      
    JM> So you say.   
      
    Yes.   
      
    BK>> but I am supporting it because of it's moral weight.   
      
    JM> Ok, So what.   
      
      
    So, do you deny the importance of moral stands?   
      
    BK>>>>   So, do you believe in the conservative health care plan, die   
    BK>>>>   quietly?   
      
    JM>>> DO you believe that is the conservative plan?   
      
    BK>>   Yes.   
      
    JM> Then nothing anyone says to you will make any difference.   
      
    Just show me any conservative plan that is anything else.   
      
    Romneycare/Republican National Health Care/Heritage Foundation   
    care which became Obamacare was a real health care plan that was   
    designed to insure everyone, but now the right is fighting their   
    own plan.   
      
    Which tells me either they never meant it, or they hate Obama so   
    much they are willing to betray their own principles to defeat   
    him. Either way, they display a complete lack of integrity.   
      
    BK>>   At least, that is the plan you seem to advocate. And that   
    BK>>   will be the result if the right wing plans actually supported in   
    BK>>   congress are enacted.   
      
    JM> I haven't advocated for any plan other than the private   
    JM> plan I have.   
      
    You appear to have advocated against any govt support for health   
    care, that's the republican plan. Die Quietly.   
      
    BK>>>>>>   Non-sequitur. NO one is talking about any free service.   
      
    JM>>> Yeah I know the doctors get paid.   
      
    JM>>> That is such  a shallow dodge.   
      
    BK>>   No, your claim to "free service" is the shallow dodge.   
      
    JM> That's just it Bob it isn't free.   
      
    That's what we are trying to tell you. That was why the Heritage   
    Foundation came up with the mandate in the first place.   
      
    BK>>   Given a society with low unemployment, and immigration under control,   
      
    JM> Immigration is FAR from being under control.   
      
    Neither is unemployment low, but that is what I am advocating.   
      
    BK>>   everyone will pay his way .   
      
    JM> No they will not. The 50% +/- who pay no federal income tax   
    JM> will still get free to them health care, that others will   
    JM> be responsible for paying.   
      
    That would be true if the cost came out of federal income tax.   
    If it comes out of a value added tax that won't apply. OTOH,   
    since most insurance comes through employers, that won't apply   
    anyway in most cases. Just study the Japanese or Taiwanese or   
    French or German or Swiss systems.   
      
    BK>>   except the most extreme handicapped.   
      
    JM> And those people I don't mind helping.   
      
    Which is why we need medicaid.   
      
    BK>>   So, it won't be free service, just paid for.   
      
    JM> By Me and 1000's like me.   
      
    By me and millions like me. By just about everyone in the   
    country if we ever adopt a full employment policy, get rid of   
    free trade, and adapt Obamacare to a full national health care   
    plan like almost all the other industrialized nations have. I   
    say almost because I favor the majority plans, which are based   
    on private sector insurance, with the govt only the insurer of   
    last resort. Which should be a small portion of the insured.   
      
    BK>>>>>>   OTOH, someone has to provide you with fire protection, police   
    BK>>>>>>   protection, military protection, and far more forms of   
    BK>>>>>>   protection than any of us really know. Next time you fly on an   
    BK>>>>>>   airliner just hope the government is still providing you with   
    BK>>>>>>   protection on aircraft.   
      
    JM>>>>> Those are whole different issues.   
      
    BK>>>>   The principle is the same, you require others provide those   
    BK>>>>   services.   
      
    JM>>> And I an willing to pay for those. I am not willing to pay   
    JM>>> for someone to sorry to take care of their own healthcare's   
    JM>>> medical bills.   
      
    BK>>   Like I said, that's the "die quietly" health care plan.   
      
    JM> Nothing like that.   
      
    Yes, it is. Or else explain how you preferred plan works to   
    cover those who can't afford their own insurance.   
      
    JM>>> Not really, Take the case of the local Volunteer Fire   
    JM>>> Departments where there is a yearly fee to support the   
    JM>>> department. If you don't pay the fee the VFD can and should   
    JM>>> let the property burn.   
      
    BK>>   Which doesn't really answer anything. You may pay a portion of   
    BK>>   the VFD's cost, but it's a small portion. You need others to pay   
    BK>>   the rest, if you want the service to exist at all.   
      
    JM> And I do pay, along with most of the people in the coverage   
    JM> area. We support the VFD and would expect them to come if   
    JM> we need them.   
      
    Yep. And if you live in an area with a govt fire dept you pay   
    and expect them to come if needed. Only no one gets off without   
    paying.   
      
    You still depend on others to make up the difference between the   
    full cost and what you pay.   
      
    ...   
      
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
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