JM>>> Yes, anyone who brings up a non-starter like "living wage"   
    JM>>> is presenting a straw-man argument. Thanks for pointing   
    JM>>> that out.   
      
    BK>>   IOW, DD is right.   
      
    JM> No, Bob DD is wrong.   
      
    No, John, DD is right.   
      
    BK>>   Anything less than a living wage is a death sentence wage. If   
    BK>>   you can't live on it all you can do on it is die slowly.   
      
    JM> Or get a better job or a second, third or fourth job.   
      
    IOW, work eat sleep and die.   
      
    JM> You just will not admit that some jobs are "starter jobs."   
      
    Ah, the typical evasion. Starter jobs, as a diversion from the   
    fact that people actually have to live while starting.   
      
    JM> Jobs like flipping burgers at the amusement park as a   
    JM> summer job for teenagers, for example, do not warrant a   
    JM> "Living wage."   
      
    They don't? Why not? Aren't you old enough to remember local   
    diners where the owner and his staff earned a living, and raised   
    their families, doing a lot of burger flipping?   
      
    DD>>>>> And there, my fine right-winger we have a basic disconnect.   
    DD>>>> Keeping and DD> strengthening the unions (yes, and getting them off   
    DD>>>> their arses to do DD> what their original purpose was) is the basis   
    DD>>>> of an improving economy DD> and a growing and healthy middle class.   
      
    JM>>>>> I'm sure you believe that.  I'm not sure anyone that truly   
    DD>>>> thinks about JM> it would agree. I certainly don't.   
      
    BK>>   I'm sure agreement doesn't determine truth, results do. As   
    BK>>   unions have declined the country's workforce has lost ground,   
    BK>>   and the country as well.   
      
    JM> In your opinion.   
      
    Which happens to be correct.   
      
    DD>>>> I certainly do. As do nearly all economists - including Paul Krugman   
      
    JM>>> So what?   
      
    BK>>   They are the professionals.   
      
    JM> Especially you, of all people, know you can find   
    JM> professionals on every side of any issue. None of them are   
    JM> correct all the time.   
      
    The economists who take the conservative side are lining up on   
    an agenda, and the agenda is not finding the truth.   
      
    ...   
      
    DD>>>> rock stars. Some are barely competent to put money in a juke box -   
    DD>>>> but, can perform useful and necessary work. Having a union to   
    DD>>>> protect their rights   
      
    JM>>> What rights? 40 hr week, two week vacation, sick time,   
    JM>>> company car? Here's a CLUE, none of those are rights.   
      
    BK>>   They are if the contract says they are.   
      
    JM> No, Those items become compensation agreed upon, not a right   
      
    When you have a contract you have the right to what is in the   
    contract.   
      
    ...   
      
    JM>>> My attitude is not "divide and conquer." My attitude is it   
    JM>>> is always better to be an individual than a member of an   
    JM>>> out of touch collective like a labor union.   
      
    BK>>   I have often told you your thinking is wrong. It is better to be   
    BK>>   an individual, working with other individuals, in an in touch   
    BK>>   collective like a labor union.   
      
    JM> Might be for people that have little individuality or much   
    JM> of a life. I would find it to be a miserable way to live.   
      
    Yet the great majority of people will live better, they always   
    have that way.   
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
   ... I took the road less traveled ... and fell in a hole.   
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