On 7/9/2012 17:54, Lee Lofaso -> John Massey wrote:   
      
    LL> Every civilized country in the world, with the exception of the   
    LL> United States, has a universal health care system.  Thank God this   
    LL> country is finally moving in the right direction by implementing   
    LL> President Obama's Affordable Care Act.   
      
   The largest tax increase in American history.   
      
      
    JM>> The right to life is a right.   
      
    LL> Life is an *unalienable* right.   
      
    JM>> The medical expertise and everything else used in modern day   
    JM>> medical practice used to extend that life is a commodity   
      
    LL> Since the right to life is an unalienable right, the right to life   
    LL> includes access to quality medical care, regardless of cost to the   
    LL> taxpayer.   
      
   In simple terms Bull Shit.   
      
      
      
    JM>>> You can not receive that care unless some one else provides   
    JM>>> it to you.   
      
    LL>>> Our "health care for profit" system should be scrapped.   
      
    JM>> And replaced with what?   
      
    LL> A universal, or at least national, health care system.   
      
   Paid for by who?   
      
      
      
      
      
    JM>> You will still have the same problems.   
      
    LL> The problem of having a healthier population is one I (and most   
    LL> other Americans) would be more than happy to live with.  :)   
      
   You will not have a healthier population   
      
      
    LL>>> The sooner, the better.  Life itself is a right,   not a commodity.   
    LL>>> And we should do all in our power to protect that life.   
      
    JM>> So far so good.   
      
    LL> Rightwingers have always claimed their purpose in life is to protect   
    LL> individuals' rights, especially individuals' unalienable rights.  :)   
      
   Of which Health care is not among them.   
      
      
    LL>>> Not benefit from somebody   
    LL>>> else's misfortune of getting sick.  For those who cannot afford to   
    LL>>> pay for access to quality health care, it is imperative for society   
    LL>>> (taxpayers) to pick up the tab.  It is the least we can do.   
      
    JM>> It's the least YOU can do. I can do a lot less and you do not have   
    JM>> the right to tax me to help pay for anyone elese's anymore than I   
    JM>> can beat the hell out of someone and call it free speech.   
      
    LL> Assault is a criminal offense, regardless of what you might call it.   
      
   So is extorting money from those that  produce, and giving it to the parasites   
   and moouchers   
      
      
    JM>>> What about that persons right to be compensated for ther service   
    JM>>> or product?   
      
    LL>>> Should doctors be compensated for their service?  Absolutely.  But   
    LL>>> how much compensation is enough?   
      
    JM>> Shouldn't that be between the doctor and the patient?   
      
    LL> Nobody has the right to play God.   
      
      
   You keep saying that then you play god and demand I pay for some bum because   
   he drank his way into a comma ( or what ever)   
      
      
    LL> Especially doctors, all of whom   
    LL> have taken an oath to *save* lives, not *end* lives.  "Do no harm" is   
    LL> part of the Hippocratic Oath.   
      
      
    LL> Rightwingers seem to get that confused with the Hypocritic Oath.   
      
   No.No. The hyocritic oath is one liberals take so they can get away with the   
   BS they spew.   
      
    LL>>> Should a heart or brain surgeon be   
    LL>>> paid megabucks for performing a 15-minute operation, whan a far   
    LL> lesser  amount but be more than sufficient?   
      
    JM>> Who gets to decide what is sufficient?   
      
    LL> Who gets to play God?   
      
   Who gets to decide what is sufficient?   
      
      
      
    LL> Certainly not doctors.   
      
    JM>> It should be the Doctor   
      
   Why not? His work, his education, his office, His office staff, Seems like he   
   would be the one to determine how much it cost and how much he will charge.   
      
      
    LL> Doctors are not God, and have no right to play God.   
    LL> Insurance companies are not God, and have no right to play God.   
    LL> Politicians are not God, and have no right to play God.   
    LL> Rightwing lunatics are not God, and have no right to play God.   
      
    JM>>> If you believe  you have a "right" to "free" health care , you must   
    JM>>> think it's OK to rob someone else to pay for it.   
      
    LL>>> Where did I say that doctors and nurses and other health   
    LL> professionals   
    LL>>> should not be given fair compensation for their work?   
      
   You haven't come up with away to pay for the service   
      
      
    JM>> Nowhere, you just want to tell them how much they can make   
      
    LL> Nobody should be allowed to benefit from somebody else's misfortune.   
    LL> Most especially doctors.  And god forbid insurance companies, whose   
    LL> only motive is to make a profit (some doctors provide their services   
    LL> pro bono).   
      
    JM>> The problem is you have never said where you are going to get the   
    JM>> money to pay for it all.   
      
    LL> As I have said previously, taxpayers will be more than happy to foot   
    LL> the bill.   
      
   Seems like the taxpayers are NOT happy to foot the bill. it's popularity is   
   dropping daily   
      
      
      
    LL>>> Taxpayers can   
    LL>>> pick up the tab for those who cannot afford to pay.   
      
    JM>> No they can't, It will bankrupt the Country.   
      
    LL> It will save this country from economic ruin.  Think about it.   
    LL> This country's greatest asset is human resources.  A healthy and   
    LL> growing population means a prosperous America for us all.  A sick   
    LL> America that is becoming sicker means a less prosperous future   
    LL> that would end in despair.   
      
    LL>>> Doctors and nurses   
    LL>>> and other health professionals, along with insurance companies and   
    LL>>> pharmaceutical companies, do not have to be so goddamn greedy at   
    LL>>> the expense of other's misfortune.   
      
    JM>> And you are the one to tell them, ALL OF THEM just how much money   
    JM>> they are allowed to make?   
      
    LL> We (society) do have that right.   
      
   No we do not. At least not directly.   
      
      
    JM>> How un-american is that idea, where I have always been told the sky   
    JM>> is the limit if you work hard and smart enough   
      
    LL> Huey P. Long was a great American.  But his brother Earl K. Long   
    LL> was an even *greater* American.  Do you know why?  Earl is the one   
    LL> who set up the charity hospital system in Louisiana.  This charity   
    LL> hospital system means that every resident in Louisiana is guaranteed   
    LL> access to quality health care, even if he/she is poor and has no   
    LL> money at all to pay for that access.   
      
   Then what the hell are you complaining about. Stay in Louisiana and you're   
   covered.   
      
      
    LL>>> For example -   
      
    LL>>> Article 25 of the U.N. Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948)   
    LL>>> reads quite clearly and emphatically:   
      
    LL>>> Everyone has the right to A STANDARD OF LIVING ADEQUATE FOR THE   
    LL>>> HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF HIMSELF AND OF HIS FAMILY, including food,   
    LL>>> clothing, housing and MEDICAL CARE and necessary social services,   
    LL>> and   
    JM>> the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness,   
    LL>>> disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in   
    LL>>> circumstances beyond his control.   
      
    LL>>> Do you know what that means?  THE WORLD OWES ME A LIVING!   
      
    JM>>> No it means theose people that came up with a wonderful utopian idea   
    JM>>> that will never work. You may think the world owes you a living but   
    JM>>> the people on it do not.   
      
    LL>>> The right to life is an unalienable right,   
      
    JM>> The right to life is a right.   
      
    LL> The right to life is an *unalienable* right.  According to Black's Law   
    LL> Dictionary, an unalienable right is someting that is incapable of being   
    LL> alienated, that is, sold and transferred.   
      
    JM>> The medical expertise and everything else used in modern day   
    JM>> medical practice used to extend or save that life is a commodity.   
      
    LL> ACCESS TO QUALITY HEALTH CARE is not the same thing as having "the   
    LL> medical expertise and everything else used in medical practice ...".   
    LL> It is about the right to life, which is an absolute (unalienable)   
    LL> right, as denial of that access would be akin to murder.   
      
   Only to people that think that way. I call them fools.   
      
      
      
      
      
    LL>>> There are also other unalienable rights, none of which are   
    LL> commodities.   
    LL>>> If a man is starving, and you had food available, would you let him   
    LL>>> starve?   
      
    JM>> Most likely not but if it is my food that I worked for or grew, just   
    JM>> because someone else is hungry does not give a right to my stuff.   
      
    LL> In time of emergency, your food can be confiscated and redistributed.   
      
   Not with out a fight.   
      
   --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.   
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)