On 7/7/2012 3:31, BOB KLAHN -> JOHN MASSEY wrote:   
      
      
      
      
    JM>> Yes, anyone who brings up a non-starter like "living wage"   
    JM>> is presenting a straw-man argument. Thanks for pointing   
    JM>> that out.   
      
    BK>   IOW, DD is right.   
      
   No, Bob DD is wrong.   
      
      
    BK>   Anything less than a living wage is a death sentence wage. If   
    BK>   you can't live on it all you can do on it is die slowly.   
      
   Or get a better job or a second, third or fourth job.   
   You just will not admit that some jobs are "starter jobs." Jobs like flipping   
   burgers at the amusement park as a summer job for teenagers, for example, do   
   not warrant a "Living wage."   
      
    DD>>>> And there, my fine right-winger we have a basic disconnect.   
    DD>>> Keeping and DD> strengthening the unions (yes, and getting them off   
    DD>>> their arses to do DD> what their original purpose was) is the basis   
    DD>>> of an improving economy DD> and a growing and healthy middle class.   
      
    JM>>>> I'm sure you believe that.  I'm not sure anyone that truly   
    DD>>> thinks about JM> it would agree. I certainly don't.   
      
    BK>   I'm sure agreement doesn't determine truth, results do. As   
    BK>   unions have declined the country's workforce has lost ground,   
    BK>   and the country as well.   
      
   In your opinion.   
      
      
    DD>>> I certainly do. As do nearly all economists - including Paul Krugman   
      
    JM>> So what?   
      
    BK>   They are the professionals.   
      
   Especially you, of all people, know you can find professionals on every side   
   of any issue. None of them are correct all the time.   
      
    DD>>> Certainly one with a unique or marketable skill will do better "on   
    DD>>> the economy". Like rock stars. But, most of the work force are not   
    DD>>> rock stars. Some are barely competent to put money in a juke box -   
    DD>>> but, can perform useful and necessary work. Having a union to   
    DD>>> protect their rights   
      
    JM>> What rights? 40 hr week, two week vacation, sick time,   
    JM>> company car? Here's a CLUE, none of those are rights.   
      
    BK>   They are if the contract says they are.   
      
   No, Those items become compensation agreed upon, not a right   
      
      
      
      
    BK>   Oh, and where do you see   
    BK>   unions contracts providing a company car?   
   Whatever   
      
      
    JM>> My attitude is not "divide and conquer." My attitude is it   
    JM>> is always better to be an individual than a member of an   
    JM>> out of touch collective like a labor union.   
      
    BK>   I have often told you your thinking is wrong. It is better to be   
    BK>   an individual, working with other individuals, in an in touch   
    BK>   collective like a labor union.   
      
   Might be for people that have little individuality or much of a life. I would   
   find it to be a miserable way to live.   
      
   --- Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:13.0) Gecko/20120614 Thunderbird/13.   
    * Origin: Fidonet Via Newsreader - http://www.easternstar.info (1:123/789.0)