...   
      
   >>LL>Bob forgets that collective bargaining is not unionism, but   
      
   BK>>No, Bob doesn't. Lee forgets that without unions there is no   
   BK>>collective bargaining.   
      
    LL> A union is merely a collection of individuals.  Nothing   
      
    A corporation is nothing but a collection of individuals. A   
    nation is nothing but a collection of individuals. A nation will   
    be listened to on the world stage far more than any of those   
    collected individuals. A corporation can be much more profitable   
    than any individual. A union can bargain much more effectively   
    than any of it's individual members.   
      
    LL> more, nothing less.  The terms "collective bargaining" and   
    LL> "business arrangement" are not synonymous.  Members of a   
      
    Your point?   
      
    LL> band can reach agreement with each other, the band then   
    LL> approaching an agent who represents them in matters finding   
    LL> gigs, etc.  The members of the band do not necessarily have   
    LL> to belong to a union.  And neither does an agent/manager.   
      
    However, bands in general would not do near as well without the   
    union.   
      
    ...   
      
   BK>>Musicians have a union.   
      
    LL> Not all musicians belong to a union.  Some do, but not all.   
      
    ...   
      
   BK>>Without that union there would be no royalties. There would   
   BK>>be no residuals.   
      
    LL> One does not have to be a member of a union in order to   
    LL> receive royalties.  There are songwriter royalties,   
      
    And why would you get royalties if there were no rules or   
    contracts covering most such royalties?   
    ...   
    LL> but no musician has to be a member of ASCAP or any other   
    LL> organization to receive royalties and residuals.   
      
    And there would be no such residuals without ASCAP or some such.   
      
   BK>>The right to a lawyer is in the constitution, the right to   
   BK>>residuals is not.   
      
    LL> The right to a lawyer is not to be found anywhere in the US   
    LL> Constitution.  That is a figment of somebody's wild and   
    LL> overactive imagination.   
      
    The sixth amendment.   
      
   >>LL>What unions are today are coerced unions.  Some states have   
      
   BK>>No union can force any company to accept a contract.   
      
    LL> No law can force any individual to join a union.   
      
    You're right. I'm trying to tell you that.   
      
   >>LL>a "closed shop" or a "union shop" - meaning that folks who   
      
   BK>>No state has a closed shop. States do not require a union shop.   
      
    LL> Unions do not like competition, hence the need for unions to   
    LL> insist on places of employment being a "closed shop".   
      
    Unions don't need closed shops, only union shops. Not the same   
    thing.   
      
   >>LL>want to be employed *must* join or remain in a union that   
   >>LL>supposedly "represents" their best interests.  However, the   
      
   BK>>Since the union officers are democratically elected,   
   BK>>representation is inherent. As to *must* join, that's only after   
   BK>>they are hired, except in contractor positions.   
      
    LL> Tactics of harrassment and intimidation are often used by   
    LL> unions to force employees of a company to join a union.   
      
    Oh? Where? Only in RTW states I would bet. No one can force you   
    to join a union if the company doesn't have a union, if the   
    company does then union membership is automatic.   
      
    LL> Not exactly what one would call "free and fair" elections,   
    LL> or "democratically elected".   
      
    Union elections are exactly what I would call democratically   
    elected. Whatever you are talking about is not a union election.   
      
   >>LL>reality is the only interests those unions are representing   
   >>LL>are the interests of the union leadership.  The workers   
   >>LL>themselves have no say. They just foot the bill.   
      
   BK>>Union officers are elected, therefore the workers have the final   
   BK>>say. We just voted out our former president because we were not   
   BK>>satisfied with his representation. Union leadership is a very   
   BK>>low paid job except in the biggest unions, at the top. I was a   
   BK>>local officer for 12 years, I know how low the pay is.   
      
    LL> Workers having the final say on officers chosen by the union   
    LL> leadership is not what anybody would call "free and fair   
    LL> elections." Any real election would allow for secret   
    LL> ballots, without harrassment or intimidation by union goons.   
      
    Point one: All union elections I have ever seen are secret   
    ballots, sealed and under federal law.   
      
    Point two: Anyone who tried to harrass or intimidate anyone   
    where I work would probably discover that's not a health thing   
    to do.   
      
   >>LL>What is needed is a National Right to Work Law.  Without   
      
   BK>>What is needed is repeal of the right to work laws.   
      
    LL> Workers in Louisiana know all too well how that turned out.   
    LL> Which is why Louisiana became a Right To Work state - in   
    LL> 1976 - and never looked back.  Not only that, but Louisiana   
    LL> did it with a Democratic governor at the helm - Edwin   
    LL> Edwards.   
      
    IOW, even he could be bought.   
      
   >>LL>such a law, workers will continue to leave industrial   
    ...   
   BK>>Since pay is higher in union states that's all nonsense.   
      
    LL> Do you have any idea as to how much street musicians make   
    LL> in the French Quarter?  None of them belong to a union.  And   
    LL> all of them make far more in a week than you could ever hope   
    LL> to make in a year.   
      
    All of them? Let's see.   
      
   BK>>You really need to learn, without unions you had nothing.   
      
    LL> I know a husband and wife duo who have been plying the   
    LL> streets in the French Quarter, making over half a million   
    LL> dollars a year, all cash.  He stands outside of a club   
    LL> playing his horn, as his wife sets up a table and rolls   
    LL> the coins...   
      
    Half a mill a year is a little under $10K/wk. Last time I made   
    that little a year was when I was in the service, and I was   
    discharged from active duty in 1971.   
      
    The median household income in Louisiana in 2010 was aprox   
    $43.5K. That means half the households in Louisiana subsisted on   
    less than that. I don't recall for sure when the last time was I   
    earned that little, not in the last 10 or 15 years. Hell, when I   
    was just a few years younger and worked more OT I earned twice   
    that or more. So don't try to tell me how wonderful your   
    Louisiana income is.   
      
    Oh, and the median American household is $8K/yr above that.   
      
   BK>>No vacations, no insurance, no retirement, no rights at all on   
   BK>>the job.   
      
    LL> Most musicians are self-employed, Bob, and an take vacations   
      
    Don't quit your day job is directed at the performing arts.   
      
    ...   
      
   BK>>Not even a coffee break.   
      
    LL> The bartender always gets me my drinks for free.  Especially   
    LL> on a Saturday night, with the crowd drifting in...   
      
    He just wants to keep you tipsy enough so you won't get up and   
    walk off.   
      
   BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org   http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn   
      
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