Hello Bob,   
      
   >BK>There is no forced unionism in any state.   
      
   >JM>Youn didn't finish you left off   
      
   >JM>there is no forced unionism, you don't have to join a union   
   >JM>just pay the dues.   
      
   >LL>Bob forgets that collective bargaining is not unionism, but   
      
   BK>No, Bob doesn't. Lee forgets that without unions there is no   
   BK>collective bargaining.   
      
   A union is merely a collection of individuals.  Nothing more,   
   nothing less.  The terms "collective bargaining" and "business   
   arrangement" are not synonymous.  Members of a band can reach   
   agreement with each other, the band then approaching an agent   
   who represents them in matters finding gigs, etc.  The members   
   of the band do not necessarily have to belong to a union.  And   
   neither does an agent/manager.   
      
   >LL>merely a business arrangement agreed upon by two or more   
   >LL>parties. That's all it is.  Kind of like a musician having   
   >LL>an agent, or a client having a lawyer.  Nothing more,   
   >LL>nothing less.   
      
   BK>Musicians have a union.   
      
   Not all musicians belong to a union.  Some do, but not all.   
   Not even a majority.  Some clubs (such as The Blue Room in New   
   Orleans) are union (musicians must be a member of a union in   
   order to perform at that location).  Most clubs are not.   
      
   BK>Without that union there would be no royalties. There would   
   BK>be no residuals.   
      
   One does not have to be a member of a union in order to receive   
   royalties.  There are songwriter royalties, performance royalties,   
   and other royalties.   Organizations (such as ASCAP) exist to help   
   musicians collect royalties, but no musician has to be a member   
   of ASCAP or any other organization to receive royalties and   
   residuals.   
      
   BK>The right to a lawyer is in the constitution, the right to   
   BK>residuals is not.   
      
   The right to a lawyer is not to be found anywhere in the US   
   Constitution.  That is a figment of somebody's wild and overactive   
   imagination.   
      
   >LL>What unions are today are coerced unions.  Some states have   
      
   BK>No union can force any company to accept a contract.   
      
   No law can force any individual to join a union.   
      
   >LL>a "closed shop" or a "union shop" - meaning that folks who   
      
   BK>No state has a closed shop. States do not require a union shop.   
      
   Unions do not like competition, hence the need for unions to   
   insist on places of employment being a "closed shop".   
      
   >LL>want to be employed *must* join or remain in a union that   
   >LL>supposedly "represents" their best interests.  However, the   
      
   BK>Since the union officers are democratically elected,   
   BK>representation is inherent. As to *must* join, that's only after   
   BK>they are hired, except in contractor positions.   
      
   Tactics of harrassment and intimidation are often used by unions   
   to force employees of a company to join a union.  Not exactly what   
   one would call "free and fair" elections, or "democratically elected".   
      
   >LL>reality is the only interests those unions are representing   
   >LL>are the interests of the union leadership.  The workers   
   >LL>themselves have no say. They just foot the bill.   
      
   BK>Union officers are elected, therefore the workers have the final   
   BK>say. We just voted out our former president because we were not   
   BK>satisfied with his representation. Union leadership is a very   
   BK>low paid job except in the biggest unions, at the top. I was a   
   BK>local officer for 12 years, I know how low the pay is.   
      
   Workers having the final say on officers chosen by the union   
   leadership is not what anybody would call "free and fair elections."   
   Any real election would allow for secret ballots, without harrassment   
   or intimidation by union goons.   
      
   >LL>What is needed is a National Right to Work Law.  Without   
      
   BK>What is needed is repeal of the right to work laws.   
      
   Workers in Louisiana know all too well how that turned out.   
   Which is why Louisiana became a Right To Work state - in 1976 -   
   and never looked back.  Not only that, but Louisiana did it   
   with a Democratic governor at the helm - Edwin Edwards.   
      
   >LL>such a law, workers will continue to leave industrial   
   >LL>states (such as Wisconsin, Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania,   
   >LL>etc.) for greener pastures (mostly in the South and other   
   >LL>Right To Work states).  This has been clearly demonstrated   
   >LL>by comparing loss of income of folks in forced unionism   
   >LL>states, as folks do tend to move to where the money is -   
      
   BK>Since pay is higher in union states that's all nonsense.   
      
   Do you have any idea as to how much street musicians make   
   in the French Quarter?  None of them belong to a union.  And   
   all of them make far more in a week than you could ever hope   
   to make in a year.   
      
   BK>You really need to learn, without unions you had nothing.   
      
   I know a husband and wife duo who have been plying the   
   streets in the French Quarter, making over half a million   
   dollars a year, all cash.  He stands outside of a club   
   playing his horn, as his wife sets up a table and rolls   
   the coins...   
      
   BK>No vacations, no insurance, no retirement, no rights at all on   
   BK>the job.   
      
   Most musicians are self-employed, Bob, and an take vacations   
   anytime they want.  Musicians also can buy their own insurance,   
   save for their own retirement, and have the same rights as all   
   other Americans.  As such, what incentive would they have to   
   join a union?   
      
   BK>Not even a coffee break.   
      
   The bartender always gets me my drinks for free.  Especially   
   on a Saturday night, with the crowd drifting in...   
      
   --Lee   
      
      
    * SLMR 2.1a * Allons Bouree.   
      
   --- Maximus 3.01   
    * Origin: Xaragmata / Adelaide SA telnet://xaragmata.mooo.com (3:800/432)