Hey Nancy!   
      
   Apr 09 23:40 06, Nancy Backus wrote to Maurice Kinal:   
      
    NB> Aye, there's the rub.  (to quote someone famous)  Often people    
    NB> *aren't*   
    NB> honest, either with themselves or with each other....   
      
   Amen.  I suppose the reason might be that whatever it is they want/need they'd   
   rather not admit to seeing it might ruffle feathers.  With male/female   
   relationships honesty might not be the best policy but then again one has to   
   ask themselves if it requires being a phoney is a relationship worth the   
   effort, especially what it will take to get out of it once it has been   
   determined that it isn't worth it.  Throw children into the mess, especially   
   when they weren't wanted, and it can get really ugly, really fast and everyone   
   comes out a loser, especially the children.   
      
    NB> terribly   
    NB> easy to fool oneself that one is indeed seeing the attributes    
    NB> desired,   
    NB> even when they aren't really there, in a person with whom one becomes   
    NB> infatuated.   
      
   That can happen for sure.   
      
    NB> And there are far too many people who put on a persona    
    NB> or a   
    NB> facade to look as though they are someone they are not, in reality.   
      
   Right.  See my first paragraph.  I think that was my point or a healthy part   
   of it.   
      
    NB> In theory, I suppose...  :)  Or, perhaps better stated, the list is    
    NB> the   
    NB> working out of the basic wants in terms of the practical    
    NB> applications.   
      
   Put it this way, if either party doesn't know the practical applications and   
   how to deal with them before getting married then I think there is a good   
   chance that both are off to a very bad start.  Having said that, sometimes it   
   gets worked out fine along the way but I think that is an exception rather   
   then a rule.   
      
    MK>> Then that husband wasn't being honest wrt the basic wants of a   
    MK>> relationship.    
      
    NB> Oh, it's often stated right up front, what the expectations would be,    
      
   Sometimes I suppose.  I don't know.  It has been quite some time for me as far   
   as male/female relationships are concerned.  After my only marriage, I haven't   
   really pursued a live together relationship with a woman as I doubt women   
   would appreciate the path I ended up travelling on since.  Me?  I am not   
   convinced I appreciated it but here I am.   
      
    NB> by   
    NB> both men and women...  Some of it is cultural, particularly those    
    NB> from   
    NB> one's childhood upbringing,   
      
   I imagine so although I don't find myself there even when I was there.    
   Something went 'wrong' somewhere along the line since if my upbringing was   
   such an influence then neither my marriage or newfound singulatrity is   
   reflected that I can see.   
      
    NB> No, but the relationship makes a difference as to how the task is   
    NB> tackled, and by whom, and in which circumstances...  :)   
      
   I suppose.  Speaking for myself the children usually decided that and often   
   that ended up being me.  I think I was a fairly good 'mother' to them.  :-)   
      
    NB> example of the dishes....  If there's only one person generating the   
    NB> dishes, of course that person is responsible for doing them up.  Once   
    NB> there are 2 or more people, whose responsibility it is becomes an   
    NB> issue...   
      
   Oh yeah!  Add children to the mix and it becomes even more of an issue.  That   
   is usually when the subject of allowance comes up.   
      
    NB> each could be responsible for the dishes self-generated, or   
    NB> one person could be designated to always clean them up, or it could    
    NB> be   
    NB> on a rota basis, or.... various permutations...  :)   And when the   
    NB> expectations, stated or not, aren't met, then the relationship is   
    NB> usually what suffers.  And this isn't solely in marital or    
    NB> male-female   
    NB> relationships, of course...   
      
   Right.  I'd agree with that.   
      
    NB> I threw those in as being expectations, rather than necessarily valid   
    NB> ones.  Generally that sort of expectations are more artificial, and    
    NB> yes,   
    NB> often a part of an extra-marital relationship, or seen as    
    NB> justification   
    NB> for cheating, sad to say.   
      
   Hm.   
      
    NB> do it oneself, whatever the job may be.  So one looks for a wife or a   
    NB> husband to take the job over for them... but, for the expectations of   
      
   Not me.  I don't like doing dishes but I'd rather just do them then use that   
   as an excuse for wanting a wife.  I can think of MUCH better reasons for   
   having a wife around then having someone to do my dishes.  ;-)   
      
   Having said that, not always for that particular reason either but certainly   
   that reason moreso then a dishwasher.   
      
    NB> Well, yes...     Not that our marriage is perfect, by any means,    
    NB> but   
    NB> we have* worked out SOME of it...   
      
   Sounds perfect to me but then I suppose we'd need to define perfection, no?   
      
    NB> niece comes over to clean for us, for a modest fee.  She does much   
    NB> better than I could or would, so I'm glad to let her do it.     
      
   Sounds like an ideal setup all around.   
      
    NB> Goes both ways, of course...  One has to put up with us, too... :)   
      
   Right.  I haven't found that person yet ... not that I am looking all that   
   hard.  I am not sure why I am not looking but I am not for whatever reason.   
      
   Life is good,   
   Maurice   
      
   --- Msged/LNX 6.2.0   
    * Origin: The Pointy Stick Society XVII - When I was ... (1:261/38.9)