-=> Quoting Maurice Kinal to Nancy Backus on 04-04-06  15:24 <=-   
      
    NB> The basic reasons are, of course, pretty much the same for both... eg   
    NB> companionship, love, sexuality, security, acceptance...   
    MK> I am not convinced, although I have heard that and have actually   
    MK> thought that as well.  However when push comes to shove those   
    MK> attributes seem to be the first to fall by the wayside for some strange   
    MK> reason.    
    NB> Not that one always gets what they thought* they'd get...  (and   
    NB> that goes for both wanting one and wanting to be one)   
      
    MK> Why do you suppose that is?  Seems to me if the attributes that they   
    MK> were seeking were genuine in both then there shouldn't be a problem, or   
    MK> at least wrt what they wanted, if indeed they were being honest about   
    MK> what they wanted.    
      
   Aye, there's the rub.  (to quote someone famous)  Often people *aren't*   
   honest, either with themselves or with each other.... and it is terribly   
   easy to fool oneself that one is indeed seeing the attributes desired,   
   even when they aren't really there, in a person with whom one becomes   
   infatuated.  And there are far too many people who put on a persona or a   
   facade to look as though they are someone they are not, in reality.   
      
    NB> When one looks at marriage in general, and the   
    NB> expectations of spouses of each other, there is QUITE the list of   
    NB> possible duties/responsibilities.   
    MK> I thought all that was covered by the basic wants?   
       
   In theory, I suppose...  :)  Or, perhaps better stated, the list is the   
   working out of the basic wants in terms of the practical applications.   
      
    NB> Husbands expect wives to do stuff   
    NB> they (the husbands) would rather not do, and vice versa...     
    MK> Then that husband wasn't being honest wrt the basic wants of a   
    MK> relationship.    
      
   Oh, it's often stated right up front, what the expectations would be, by   
   both men and women...  Some of it is cultural, particularly those from   
   one's childhood upbringing, seeing what different roles are being taken   
   by the adults around one.  And often it IS wanting to have someone else   
   do particular tasks one doesn't want to have to do oneself...  Of   
   course, sometimes one isn't always completely honest as to what one   
   hopes someone else will do, or at least completely up front about it.   
      
    NB> Sometimes the division of labor makes sense, sometimes not...  :)     
      
    MK> Yes but those labours have little to do with a relationship or not   
    MK> seeing as they exist without a relationship.  The dishes don't do   
    MK> themselves.    
      
   No, but the relationship makes a difference as to how the task is   
   tackled, and by whom, and in which circumstances...  :)  Using your   
   example of the dishes....  If there's only one person generating the   
   dishes, of course that person is responsible for doing them up.  Once   
   there are 2 or more people, whose responsibility it is becomes an   
   issue...  each could be responsible for the dishes self-generated, or   
   one person could be designated to always clean them up, or it could be   
   on a rota basis, or.... various permutations...  :)   And when the   
   expectations, stated or not, aren't met, then the relationship is   
   usually what suffers.  And this isn't solely in marital or male-female   
   relationships, of course...   
      
    NB> there's things like being the "trophy wife", being a "sugar daddy",   
    MK> I've seen that.  Quite common actually but usually outside of the   
    MK> actual relationship and both are equally guilty of 'cheating' as it is   
    MK> commonly called.   
      
   I threw those in as being expectations, rather than necessarily valid   
   ones.  Generally that sort of expectations are more artificial, and yes,   
   often a part of an extra-marital relationship, or seen as justification   
   for cheating, sad to say.   
      
    NB> entertaining, raising the kids, being the schedule coordinator for    
    NB> the whole family, transporting the kids to all their myriad   
    NB> activities and appointments, cooking, cleaning, laundry, handling   
    NB> the finances, yard work, doing the taxes, etc, etc....   :)   
      
    MK> All exist outside of a male/female relationship.  I see many women   
    MK> these days doing all the above without a husband.  Occasionally even   
    MK> men and they have additional baggage thrown at them simply because   
    MK> society is suspicious of men doing those tasks without a wife, trophy   
    MK> or otherwise.    
      
   Of course... they ARE all or mostly all needed jobs...  the point being   
   that one likes to have someone else be doing them instead of having to   
   do it oneself, whatever the job may be.  So one looks for a wife or a   
   husband to take the job over for them... but, for the expectations of   
   someone else doing the work not to destroy the relationship, one has to   
   find either a balance or work out who does what when...  :)  Which is   
   why I said:   
      NB> Of course, in a good marriage, many of these will end up being done   
      NB> by both spouses, either in turn or in conjunction, or being the care   
      NB> of one better suited than the other, or be considered not at all   
      NB> important for anyone to do...  :)   
      
    MK> If dishes were wishes ...  :-)   
       
   Well, yes...     Not that our marriage is perfect, by any means, but   
   we have* worked out SOME of it...  Dishes, each is responsible for at   
   least rinsing what one uses; cooking, from scratch is usually me, but we   
   also get a selection of prepared meals that whoever is available can put   
   in the oven or microwave; laundry and groceries, we usually do together,   
   with the heavy lifting his responsibility since I have doctor-imposed   
   weight limitations; yard work is his except for the gardens (if anything   
   is done there, that's mine); automotive, mechanical, electrical, fix-it,   
   and computers are all his, as those are in his expertise areas; keeping   
   track of scheduling is mine, along with most of the remembering names   
   and dates, as those are definitely NOT his strengths; major bills are   
   his since he has the primary income, but we mostly have totally separate   
   accounts, and handle our own finances, mine mostly from a weekly   
   allowance from which household expenses come or what I can get in "egg   
   money"; income tax figuring is mine, as I'm better with crunching   
   numbers; counseling is generally mine, although I pull him in on couple-   
   counseling, and he does end up occasionally covering for me when it's   
   friends in need; the kid is grown, but before, we'd both go to school   
   things when available, but as things progressed, I was more available;   
   raising the kid was both of ours, and still is, when needed...  And   
   entertaining we just don't do...    As neither of us is all that keen   
   on housework (although either could do it, and do it well), for now my   
   niece comes over to clean for us, for a modest fee.  She does much   
   better than I could or would, so I'm glad to let her do it.     
      
    NB> People being people, and certainly not perfect or ideal specimens,    
    NB> they   
    NB> come complete with lots of faults which one has to put up with along   
    NB> with all that they could be doing for one...     
      
    MK> For sure.  Sigh.   
      
   Goes both ways, of course...  One has to put up with us, too... :)   
      
   ttyl         neb   
      
   ... Love me or leave me... HEY! where is everyone going!   
      
   ___ Blue Wave/QWK v2.20   
      
   --- ViaMAIL!/WC v1.60d   
    * Origin: Chowdanet (401-724-4410) telnet://chowdanet.com  (1:323/120)