-=> Quoting Maurice Kinal to Nancy Backus on 08-06-05  05:46 <=-   
      
    MB> and it really does   
    NB> hurt, when one cares about someone, and for whatever reason that    
    NB> person does things that are destructive.   
      
    MK> That can happen too I suppose.  I wasn't really going that far with   
    MK> the concept.  What happens further, after the plug pulling, is unknown   
    MK> to me for the mostpart.  May hear rumours but that is all they are.    
    MK> Certainly nothing that one can do about that without making things   
    MK> worse.  Is there?    
      
   Often there isn't anything anyone else can do, before or after "plug   
   pulling", since it is really up to the person him/herself.  For better   
   or* for worse...  although, yes, often what we try to do to help only   
   does make things worse, since what really is needed isn't our input.   
      
    NB> I've found it particularly the case   
    NB> when that person is doing something destructive to him/herself.  I    
    NB> can't do anything to stop them, though I would have if I could, and    
    NB> it hurts precisely because I DO care.   
      
    MK> Exactly.  My above 'additional grief' theory.  If you, or I, am   
    MK> resposible somehow simply because of love then that makes a better case   
    MK> for ditching it in the first place despite the lack of power over   
    MK> denial of existance.    
      
   I wasn't saying anything at all about whose responsibility it is.  I am   
   not responsible for my friend's actions in the least, but it still is   
   painful to watch her/him self-destruct.  My love for the person only   
   makes me care what happens, not make me responsible for what does or   
   doesn't happen...   
      
    NB> Well, the work is to transform the bad into good, the unhealthy into   
    NB> healthy...   
      
    MK> I am not so sure.  My early experience with that is that 'work' is   
    MK> often what makes things unhealthy in the first place.   
       
   We may be using different definitions of "work" here...  :)   
      
    NB> In a marriage relationship, it's almost always worthwhile to   
    NB> be working on things, from the outset, so that things don't get as    
    NB> bad as they could.   
      
    MK> For sure but that is a two way street and cannot, nor should not, be   
    MK> something either partner can do alone.  'This is the way I am, take it   
    MK> or leave it.', comes to mind as an example of where I've seen   
    MK> relationships fail and probably should, marriage or not.  Another   
      
   :)  While there is a bit of validity to needing to accept each other for   
   who and what they are, the "take it or leave it" attitude is usually a   
   good indicator for "this isn't going to work out, better cut your losses   
   now"...  and hopefully shows up before* one has too much invested into   
   the relationship.  But in any case, the one needing to effect any change   
   is the person who needs changing, not those around him/her.  One should   
   never go into a relationship thinking that one will be able to change   
   the other to some "more acceptable" person along the way.   
      
    MK> famous line, 'You're not the person I married!'  Hm.  Who was that at   
    MK> the wedding then and how will this affect a divorce?  Heh, heh.  I   
    MK> better quit here before I say too much, if I already haven't.  :-)   
       
     Ah, yes... and there are ways in which we never change, and   
   ways in which we aren't going to stay the same, no matter how hard we   
   do or don't try...  :)   
      
    NB> before commitments are made.  Admittedly, that is easier said than    
    NB> done, unless one looks carefully at them instead of being simply   
    NB> caught up in an infatuation.   
      
    MK> Right.  Or even love.  Love does not conquer all.   
       
   Love doesn't conquer all, true...  but a truly unconditional love can   
   bear with just about anything.  Unconditional love being that which   
   loves the person without putting any conditions for that love... which   
   can accept the person without necessarily accepting all the behavior.    
   There's a lot of different kinds of loving that get lumped together into   
   the one word we use, "love"....     
      
   ttyl       neb   
      
   ... Young at heart... slightly older in other places.   
      
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