>
BK>> I can't see why Muslim on Chriatian violence would have anything
BK>> at all to do with the revolution. I wonder if anti-Islam people are
BK>> playing this up. Or supporters of the (now former) dicator.
RW> I think they were misinterpreting some of what they were
RW> seeing. Islamic group members were vocal supporters, and
RW> some former brotherhood members as well from what I"ve read
RW> since, but they all say the same thing. Ideology has no
RW> place in this, we've got to get changes made for the
RW> benefit of the citizens, then we're going to worry about
RW> the rest, but this inresponsive government's gotta go.
That's how I see it. They were lining up against a bad
government. There is nothing for us to do there, but stand back
and let it happen.
>
RW>> This is also true. I'd like to come right out and support
RW>> a democracy movement over there, meaning that whole part of
RW>> the world, but so far what I"ve seen with "popular"
RW>> revolutions is something like Iran.
BK>> Iran was no real threat to the US from the beginning. Iran did
BK>> turn to democracy, and even supported the US invasion of
BK>> Afghanistan and the democratization of Iraq. Bush paid them back
BK>> by kicking them in the teeth. The current regime in Iran came after
BK>> that.
RW> EH? 1979-80 didn't look like a friendly democratic regime
RW> to me. I grant they were growing that direction. IN fact,
By 2001 they were supporting the US in the WOT. However, Bush
needed enemies more than he needed allies.
RW> iirc Iran did make some pretty bold steps toward democracy
RW> way back when and the U.S> helped tip that one over to
RW> install the shah.
That was back in the '50s IIRC. And yes, you are right.
...
RW> I"ve argued this for years. Part of U.s> intervention
RW> should be the assistance in building a stable
RW> constitutional democracy. THat should be an assumption
RW> going in, and an expectation of those who ask our help.
RW> Anything else and the troops and equipment stay home.
Exactly what I am thinking.
RW>>> Acknowledged and agreed. You notice in the joint committee
RW>>> report of congress a bunch of information suppressed,
...
BK>> Oh, yeah. If you follow it for years you see what is unknown is
BK>> really obvious, but you have to pay attention.
RW> OF course you do, and you have to seek it out because it
RW> isn't available to you via the talking heads on cnn and Fox
RW> news.
...
BK>> Mubarak has been torturing leaders of the MB. So they want him
BK>> gone in any case. I don't doubt the groundswell for democracy,
BK>> mostly because it started with Tunisia and has spread from
BK>> there. It exploded so fast I don't believe the MB had even a
BK>> chance to understand what was happening. No one did.
RW> WAs sort of a bolt from the blue .
Yup.
...
BK>> Since mid Dec of last year, Tunisia and Egypt have had
BK>> successful rebellions. Jordan, Algeria, Yemen and Bahrain have
BK>> been subject to enough protests to force the governments to make
BK>> changes.
RW> RIght, and that one could still blow up even though the
RW> vote is in. There's still some pretty bad blood in Sudan.
Yep. It could. Which is why the US needs to get out of Iraq and
Afghanisan, so we can have a credible military to support
democratic govts when the locals establish them.
>
RW>> The question is what
RW>> they'll do if they get their wish. WIll they work with
RW>> secular leaders to actually govern in the interest of all
RW>> the people or settle for nothing less than rule by their
RW>> ISlamic law? That's the question we should be asking, and
RW>> keep on asking before we pour in any support at all.
BK>> That's a question we should ask, but it's not the question that
BK>> should decide our actions at this point. We need to support
BK>> democracy. Supporting a country on the basis of how it suits our
BK>> needs is how we lose countries. It's how we are losing in Iraq and
BK>> Afghanistan. It's how Iran and Venezuala turned against us. It's
BK>> how we lost in Vietnam.
RW> INdeed, but there are valid concerns there as well. But
RW> you could add Iran to that other example, the installation
RW> of the Shah and the overthrow of a government with popular
RW> support. The Shah wouldn't have been able to take power if
RW> not for the U.S.
And that led, eventually, to the Ayatollahs and then to today's
Iran. Which may well not be tomorror's Iran. Looks like the
protests are heating up again.
BK>> We need to look at one thing only, what is best for the people
BK>> there.
RW> Indeed, that should be the biggest factor in our decision.
BK>> BTW, the idea that Islamic law is bad is something to wonder at.
BK>> There is little if anything in Islamic law that isn't also in
BK>> Jewish and Christian law. Cutting off people's hands and
BK>> beheading them is not Islamic, it's Arabic. And it's also found in
BK>> Christian history. As is stoning. Which comes from the Jewish
BK>> tradition.
RW> Agreed, so that's the next question, who's version of
RW> "islamic " or sharia are we going with? I wouldn't support
RW> the Wahhabi version at all.
Which takes us back to the Wahabi, and the Saudis, being the
prime source of anti-US terror.
RW>
BK>> Isn't it interesting that the biggest claim of superiority we can
BK>> make against a related religion is that we *IGNORE* our own
BK>> religious teachings and traditions.
RW> Indeed, but there again, what are "our own?" MOst of us
RW> granted are Christian in one form or another. For those of
This is a Christian culture, even for those who are not
Christians themselves.
RW> us who are JEwish we have many teachings in common. But
RW> then what of the hindus and Buddhists among us? tHen I'd
A small fraction, and not near as peaceful and spiritual as they
are painted.
RW> venture to say that there are more atheists than one might
RW> think, they usually choose to keep their beliefs, or should
RW> I say lack of beliefs silent and hold the one belief
Worldwide the top belief systems are, Christian, Muslim,
Unbeliever. And Catholics are the overwhelming majority of
Christians. IOW, unbelievers are the third largest group. In the
stats they are divided between atheists and unbelievers. I think
that's to reduce the apparent numbers.
RW> publicly which states that your religious beliefs are your
RW> own business and between you and whatever you perceive your
RW> ggod to be. Although I was raised Christian I turned my
RW> back on all of it as a young man, and learned soon after
RW> doing so the advisability of just keeping my mouth shut and
RW> avoiding religious pomp and ceremony whenever possible.
True. And now the evangelical extremists are becoming a danger
to this country. Read up on the Millitary Religious Freedom
Foundation.
BK>> Those who insist our society should be governed by our religious
BK>> traditions and laws, going all the way back to the most ancient
BK>> ones, can be no better in their conduct than the worst of
BK>> Islamic fundamentalism.
RW> YOu got that right!!! What are we talking here?
RW> 14th amendment if I'm right (first cup of coffee) and
RW> proscription against cruel and unusual punishment.
See the tagline.
BOB KLAHN bob.klahn@sev.org http://home.toltbbs.com/bobklahn
... problem with cruel punishment is, when adopted,it tends not to be unusual.
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