XPost: comp.os.linux.advocacy
From: vallor@vallor.earth

At Mon, 15 Dec 2025 09:39:57 -0800, John Ames  wrote:

> On Sat, 13 Dec 2025 10:56:37 +0000
> Richard Kettlewell  wrote:
>
> > >> MAC OS-X worked fine without [X11].
> > >
> > > It actually did have it included, right to this day.
> >
> > macOS has not included X11 for over a decade.
>
> The comparison isn't very indicative, anyway. OSX included X11 support
> because NeXTSTEP had, but NeXTSTEP had it because it was in the "Unix
> business workstation" market and it would've been stupid *not* to be
> compatible with the dominant display-server standard just because they
> had their own that they liked better.
>
> Even on NeXSTEP, though, I'm not sure that it ever saw a lot of use,
> since the native tools for building GUI applications were much better
> (if you could cope with Objective-C;) and when it got around to OSX it
> was little more than a novelty, as Mac users unsurprisingly preferred
> to run Mac software. Which, for the most part, it did perfectly well.
>
> A better comparison would be a hypothetical scenario in which Apple
> decided that the underlying frameworks in classic MacOS had significant
> security holes (which they did) and were unsuitable for a cooperative
> multi-tasking, multi-user OS (which they were,) and that it was there-
> fore in need of a ground-up redesign...
>
> ...but instead of a concerted effort to make the transition reasonably
> seamless, they got about 70% of the core functionality, fudged some of
> the remainder, made breaking changes to some more in accordance with a
> whole different set of ideas about how the GUI should work, and replied
> to user and developer complaints with patronizing lectures about how
> You Don't Need That and The New Way Is Much Better Actually, You Sheep.

 ...which could be considered foreshadowning the attitudes of
certain Wayland developers... ;)

>
> Which, in a post-iPad world, would actually be a very typically Apple
> thing to do - but which is *not* the kind of thing freenix users are
> used to putting up with. And unlike proprietary OSes controlled by a
> single corporation, freenix users have the option to tell them where to
> stick it.

Amen!

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