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   On 01 Jul 2021 at 06:13p, Richard Falken pondered and said...   
       
    RF>   Re: Re: what's classic now?   
    RF>   By: Dan Cross to Richard Falken on Fri Jul 02 2021 03:01 am   
    RF>  > That doesn't sound right to me.  Rogue began life on a VAX   
    RF>  > running BSD Unix, not 6th Edition.  Adventure almost certainly   
    RF>  > made an appearance on the PDP-11 pretty early on, perhaps in   
    RF>  > the Research days, but rogue would have come later; after all,   
    RF>  > it uses curses.   
    RF>    
    RF> I sourced that information from the Early Roguelike Gallery. John Elwin   
    RF> is trying very hard to keep a living museum of early rogue(likes) so if   
    RF> you have a valid source for that claim, he will LOVE to hear about it   
    RF> and make the necessary corrections.   
      
   Well, the original authors were Glenn Wichman and Michael Toy,   
   with some input from Ken Arnold.  Arnold wrote the curses   
   library that they built Rogue on top of at Berkeley.  Rogue is   
   from 1980, 6th Edition Unix was '74 (tapes went out in '75),   
   7th Ed was '78 (tapes distributed outside of Bell Labs in '79),   
   and 32V (Unix ported to run on the VAX) later in '79.  Joy   
   and Baboglu did virtual memory support in 3.0 BSD (before   
   TCP/IP!) towards the end of '79.  Ken Arnold wrote curses while   
   at Berkeley, where he was a student from '79 to '83.  The   
   earliest reference to curses that I can find is from 2.79BSD,   
   which is April 1980, though there are claims that there was   
   a paper written in 1977; I'm not sure I buy that, though, as I   
   can't find a good source for that time frame.  In the original   
   curses paper from 2.79, Arnold gives credit to Bill Joy for   
   what is obviously termcap, which was done for `vi`.  So I   
   think it's safe to assume that the work that went into curses   
   was probably done ~1979.   
      
   2.79 also includes a document from Michael Toy describing   
   rogue; Glenn Wichman has a history document describing the   
   history of `rogue` here:   
   http://www.digital-eel.com/deep/A_Brief_History_of_Rogue.htm   
   Note the references to starting with curses; so whenever   
   Rogue was written, it post-dates curses, and a lot of   
   contemporary accounts put it in 1980: 6th Ed was long in   
   the tooth by then.   
      
   I found a site called "rlgallery.org" which is a "Roguelike   
   Gallery" and has some history notes that claim development   
   in 1981 through 1983, but with no citations save some really   
   sketchy link to a gamesutra article.  I can't find any references   
   to 6th Edition beyond the rlgallery.org notes, but that doesn't   
   make a lot of sense to me, as I said before: if that early   
   work were done on a PDP-11, I imagine it would have been running   
   2BSD (any college in the UC system could have gotten the tape).   
      
   So yeah. I'm not buying that it was originally written for 6th   
   Ed.  That just doesn't make a lot of sense.   
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