From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri May 21 19:22:46 1993
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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 16:17:29 PDT
From: kin@guam.island.COM (Kin Blas)
Message-Id: <9305212317.AA06866@guam.island.com>
To: cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us, metlay@netcom.com, ricard@axis.se
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

> It's not the remember that makes me feel old. It's others who quite honestly
> and through no fault of their own don't know what a Hammond etc. is. That's
> what drives it home.
> 
>  - CM
> 

Hammond?  What's a Hammond? Moog?  Isn't that something a cow says?
Hey I thought the DX7 was the first synth? Just joking, if it makes you
feel any better, I knew what a Hammond was, but before I started reading
r.m.s and r.m.m.s, I thought that the "Leslie effect" was some sort of
vibrato/tremolo effect built into the Hammond not some external rotating
speaker thing-a-ma-jig.

--== Kin Blas ==--
kin@island.com

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri May 21 18:23:38 1993
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From: Chris Meyer <cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us>
Message-Id: <199305212219.AA25425@well.sf.ca.us>
To: cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us, metlay@netcom.com, ricard@axis.se
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

It's not the remember that makes me feel old. It's others who quite honestly
and through no fault of their own don't know what a Hammond etc. is. That's
what drives it home.

 - CM

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri May 21 15:54:51 1993
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From: wbf@aluxpo.att.com
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Date: Fri, 21 May 93 12:44:54 EDT
Original-From: aluxpo!wbf (William Fox)
Message-Id: <9305211644.AA29859@alux1.cnet.att.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, metlay@netcom.com,
        meyer@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
Status: OR

>>I'm beginning to feel old.
>> - CM
Metlay:
>Son, I've been feeling old ever since I GOT on this damn newsgroup.
>How many of us remember when analogue was all there WAS, I mean, REALLY?
Boys, boys, boys!  What were you doing when the Beatles played on the Ed
Sullivan Show that first time in February '64?  I was only (number) nine
but I was watching!  And how many remember when there WEREN'T synthesizers
and the Theremin was the rage in electronic music?

>Sumeria, 3000 BCE:
>"Don't you ever get tired of bread, onions, and beer?"
>"Huh? Tired of FOOD?"
>
>The Synth World, 1979 CE:
>"Don't you ever get tired of analogue synths?"
>"Huh? Tired of ELECTRONIC MUSIC?"

The Galaxy, 3000 ACE:
"Why would you want to go to the Terran system?"
"Because they're having a concert at this cafe in Paris, Mars using old
fashioned optical computers like they used in the Dim Ages!"

Bill "These damned fool kids" Fox

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri May 21 13:46:46 1993
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From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
Date: Fri, 21 May 93 18:42:00 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.1 12/13/89)
To: metlay@netcom.com (metlay), cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us (Chris Meyer)
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

> 
> >I'm beginning to feel old.
> > - CM
> 
> Son, I've been feeling old ever since I GOT on this damn newsgroup.
> How many of us remember when analogue was all there WAS, I mean, REALLY?

Well, I remember walking into a music store with lines upon lines of
MS-10s, MiniMoogs, Firstman SQ-01s, SH-09s, 808s, ... the Korg PS-3200 was
the only real polysynth I'd seen then (although the Prophet-5 was surely
out), and I thought it was amazing ... a sequencer was a CSQ-100 or whatever,
and it could control one anlogue synth if you were lucky... yes... it was
a long time ago, but I think I had more fun then...when exploring a synth
meant staring at the front panel for an hour, and perhaps pressing a key
or two...(tears)...the CS-70 was magnificent (anyone remember these?) though
it didn't sound that great but I didn't know in those days...all some sort
of excitement I rarely feel today, except when someone dumps a Mini in my
lap and says "fix it"...exploring a Mini-Korg or 800DV where the legends
on the panel meant nothing when you were used to more modern stuff 
("traveller?", "expand?"...)

Ah well, back to modern times...

/Ricard

-- 
Ricard Wolf                   / | \  / | /-           email: ricard@axis.se
Axis Communications AB       /__|  \/  | \__          uucp:  axisab.se!ricard
S - 223 70 LUND             /   |  /\  |    \         Tel:   +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN                     /    | /  \ | \__/         Fax:   +46 46 13 61 30
                     -- "Stop! Living on video!" --

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri May 21 05:30:16 1993
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From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
Date: Fri, 21 May 93 11:10:07 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.1 12/13/89)
To: metlay@netcom.com (metlay), kin@guam.island.COM (Kin Blas)
Subject: Re: The infamous Leslie effect
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

> >  Is a VCA the same as a TVA (Time Variant Amplitude)?  Is there an FAQ
> >on all this acronym stuff ... what they stand for and what they do?
> 
> No there isn't, although maybe there should be. The term TVA was coined by
> Roland and picked up by one or two other manufacturers, to replace the more
> established term VCA (Voltage Controlled Amplifier) in descriptions of their
> synths. The term TVA is just a bit of Adspeak, much as Korg still refuses

On the other hand, in a digital synth it is in fact _not_ a VCA, since there
is no control voltage involved. So anyone striving for correctness
would try to find a different acronym ... like VCO -> DCO a few years ago
when the Juno-6 et al came out. DCA anyone? 

Then again, who cares? We all know what a VCA does, so why not call it that?

/Ricard, giver of conflicting opinions

-- 
Ricard Wolf                   / | \  / | /-           email: ricard@axis.se
Axis Communications AB       /__|  \/  | \__          uucp:  axisab.se!ricard
S - 223 70 LUND             /   |  /\  |    \         Tel:   +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN                     /    | /  \ | \__/         Fax:   +46 46 13 61 30
                  -- "Feel like fire - feel like ice" --

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 19:00:31 1993
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From: dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (Andrew C. Crowell)
Message-Id: <9305202024.AA18498@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Date: Thu, 20 May 93 15:24:01 CDT
In-Reply-To: <8fyujuC00YUnARXHAG@andrew.cmu.edu>; from "Simon Peter Gatrall" at May 20, 93 12:04 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: OR

Previously, Simon Peter Gatrall wrote:
> 
> Until recently, I had never heard of a Leslie, but with all the
> discussion on rec.music.makers.synth about the Hammond B3 patch in Emu's
> Vintage Keys, and with the discussion here, I'm intrigued.  I have a
> vague understanding of the physical arrangement of the beast, but I
> don't have a good idea of what it would really sound like.  What are
> some obvious examples of pop music that used a Leslie?

The Leslie sound was one of the true hallmarks of a lot of 60's organ.
Both Steppenwolf and Traffic relied fairly heavily on the effect, as did
a number of other organ players (and even, some guitarists and other
folk!).
	There were two real "thumbprint"-type effects one found with the
Leslie. One was to just suddenly kick the signal into the Leslie cabinet,
thereby abruptly altering several characteristics of the sound. The other,
more satisfying effect, required the "real" Leslie, which had a 
multispeed (fast and slow) setting for the rotating horns. By switching
the speed, you caused the rate of vibrato and Doppler characteristics to
change, and used right (I think one finds this in Steppenwolf's "Magic
Carpet Ride"), it's a very effective effect.
	Also, miking the Leslie cabinet can give a few more interesting
tricks. I found that by using three mikes, you can get some very wild
stereo effects out of the Leslie. One is used on the lower section, and
panned to center. This is for bass, anyway...nothing seriously directional
about bass sounds. The other two were placed on the rotation plane of the
horns, about 120-degrees apart. These got panned to hard left and right,
and as the horns passed, the mid and high signals would rip back and
forth between the two channels. _Very_ entertaining!

D.A.C. Crowell
Computer Music Project/School of Music
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
(dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu)


From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 16:24:54 1993
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From: dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (Andrew C. Crowell)
Message-Id: <9305202024.AA18498@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Date: Thu, 20 May 93 15:24:01 CDT
In-Reply-To: <8fyujuC00YUnARXHAG@andrew.cmu.edu>; from "Simon Peter Gatrall" at May 20, 93 12:04 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: OR

Previously, Simon Peter Gatrall wrote:
> 
> Until recently, I had never heard of a Leslie, but with all the
> discussion on rec.music.makers.synth about the Hammond B3 patch in Emu's
> Vintage Keys, and with the discussion here, I'm intrigued.  I have a
> vague understanding of the physical arrangement of the beast, but I
> don't have a good idea of what it would really sound like.  What are
> some obvious examples of pop music that used a Leslie?

The Leslie sound was one of the true hallmarks of a lot of 60's organ.
Both Steppenwolf and Traffic relied fairly heavily on the effect, as did
a number of other organ players (and even, some guitarists and other
folk!).
	There were two real "thumbprint"-type effects one found with the
Leslie. One was to just suddenly kick the signal into the Leslie cabinet,
thereby abruptly altering several characteristics of the sound. The other,
more satisfying effect, required the "real" Leslie, which had a 
multispeed (fast and slow) setting for the rotating horns. By switching
the speed, you caused the rate of vibrato and Doppler characteristics to
change, and used right (I think one finds this in Steppenwolf's "Magic
Carpet Ride"), it's a very effective effect.
	Also, miking the Leslie cabinet can give a few more interesting
tricks. I found that by using three mikes, you can get some very wild
stereo effects out of the Leslie. One is used on the lower section, and
panned to center. This is for bass, anyway...nothing seriously directional
about bass sounds. The other two were placed on the rotation plane of the
horns, about 120-degrees apart. These got panned to hard left and right,
and as the horns passed, the mid and high signals would rip back and
forth between the two channels. _Very_ entertaining!

D.A.C. Crowell
Computer Music Project/School of Music
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
(dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu)


From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 16:11:06 1993
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From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Message-Id: <9305202009.AA28016@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The infamous Leslie effect
To: kin@guam.island.COM (Kin Blas)
Date: Thu, 20 May 93 13:09:00 PDT
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu
In-Reply-To: <9305201652.AA01479@guam.island.com>; from "Kin Blas" at May 20, 93 9:52 am
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: OR


>> ... It's possible to simulate the tremolo
>> effect by using an LFO with a 0-degree and 180-degree phase output of a sine
>> wave, and feeding this to two VCA control ins, one with the signal
>> outputted to the left, the other to the right, then by adjusting the 
>> input trim, you can get _close_...but without the addition of the Doppler
>> effect, you can't get this.
>
>  Ah, the Doppler effect ... I knew something was missing, but I couldn't put
>my finger on it!

If you try to put your finger on a rotating Leslie speaker, you'll lose the
finger. And if it's one of the 100-watt muthas, you'll lose the hand too. |->

>  Is a VCA the same as a TVA (Time Variant Amplitude)?  Is there an FAQ
>on all this acronym stuff ... what they stand for and what they do?

No there isn't, although maybe there should be. The term TVA was coined by
Roland and picked up by one or two other manufacturers, to replace the more
established term VCA (Voltage Controlled Amplifier) in descriptions of their
synths. The term TVA is just a bit of Adspeak, much as Korg still refuses
to call their LFOs LFOs and insists on MG (MOdulation Generator), and so on.
Where things get really ugly is when you get into more arcane stuff like
modulating one audio source with another; depending on whose instrument
you're playing, this is called Poly-Mod, Cross-Mod, X-Mod, Linear FM, Ring
Modulation (an incorrect use of the term, BTW), and Twinge.

>  Several people have mentioned that the Boss SE-50 does a good simulation.
>Can you vary the speed of the effect?  Didn't Roland/Boss discontinue this
>effects box?  How much for a new or used one?

You can find SE50s for 350 bux or so. The vocoder is tolerable but not
great when used with voice as a modulator. I will admit to being very
intrigued by the many-band vocoder promised in the SE70.



-- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
If this is a Global Village, then I must be the Global Village Idiot.......

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 13:50:57 1993
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          20 May 93 13:48:30 EDT
To: Kin Blas <kin@guam.island.com>
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: The infamous Leslie effect 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 May 93 09:52:45 PDT."
             <9305201652.AA01479@guam.island.com> 
Date: Thu, 20 May 93 13:48:24 -0400
Message-Id: <14986.737920104@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU>
From: Yoshiaki_Ohshima@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU
Status: OR


>  Several people have mentioned that the Boss SE-50 does a good simulation.
>Can you vary the speed of the effect?  Didn't Roland/Boss discontinue this
>effects box?  How much for a new or used one?

yes, it can. i believe they still make it but se70 came out recently.
i got it for $350 new.
							--aki

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 13:19:12 1993
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Date: Thu, 20 May 93 09:52:45 PDT
From: kin@guam.island.COM (Kin Blas)
Message-Id: <9305201652.AA01479@guam.island.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: The infamous Leslie effect
Status: OR

> ... It's possible to simulate the tremolo
> effect by using an LFO with a 0-degree and 180-degree phase output of a sine
> wave, and feeding this to two VCA control ins, one with the signal
> outputted to the left, the other to the right, then by adjusting the 
> input trim, you can get _close_...but without the addition of the Doppler
> effect, you can't get this.

  Ah, the Doppler effect ... I knew something was missing, but I couldn't put
my finger on it!

  Is a VCA the same as a TVA (Time Variant Amplitude)?  Is there an FAQ
on all this acronym stuff ... what they stand for and what they do?

  Several people have mentioned that the Boss SE-50 does a good simulation.
Can you vary the speed of the effect?  Didn't Roland/Boss discontinue this
effects box?  How much for a new or used one?

--== Kin Blas ==--
kin@island.com


From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 12:49:05 1993
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Date: Thu, 20 May 93 09:41:51 PDT
From: kin@guam.island.COM (Kin Blas)
Message-Id: <9305201641.AA01460@guam.island.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, sg1q+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
Status: OR

> Until recently, I had never heard of a Leslie, but with all the
> discussion on rec.music.makers.synth about the Hammond B3 patch in Emu's
> Vintage Keys, and with the discussion here, I'm intrigued.  I have a
> vague understanding of the physical arrangement of the beast, but I
> don't have a good idea of what it would really sound like.  What are
> some obvious examples of pop music that used a Leslie?
> 
> -s!mon

  I too first heard of a Leslie on r.m.s and r.m.m.s.  You know when the
Leslie is turned on because the organ sound has a tremolo effect.

  Some examples off the top of my head:

	1. "No Woman No Cry" by Bob Marley and the Whalers

	2. "Biggest Part" of Me by Ambrosia

	3. "Stuck With You" and alot of other songs by Huey Lewis and the News

--== Kin Blas ==--
kin@island.com

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 12:08:42 1993
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Date: Thu, 20 May 1993 12:04:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Simon Peter Gatrall <sg1q+@andrew.cmu.edu>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
In-Reply-To: <13916.737911565@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU>
Status: OR

Until recently, I had never heard of a Leslie, but with all the
discussion on rec.music.makers.synth about the Hammond B3 patch in Emu's
Vintage Keys, and with the discussion here, I'm intrigued.  I have a
vague understanding of the physical arrangement of the beast, but I
don't have a good idea of what it would really sound like.  What are
some obvious examples of pop music that used a Leslie?

-s!mon


From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 11:28:55 1993
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To: wbf@aluxpo.att.com
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations 
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 20 May 93 10:05:12 EDT."
             <9305201405.AA16274@alux1.cnet.att.com> 
Date: Thu, 20 May 93 11:26:05 -0400
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From: Yoshiaki_Ohshima@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU
Status: OR


hi:

speaking of which, does anyone remember the hillwood (multibox) fullrotor?

i've been trying to dig up a very good article on leslies that appeared
on keyboard or eq magazine. it describes in detail what makes leslie
produce leslie sound and why it's not just plural tremolo and doppler
effects swirling independently.

does anyone remember which issue it was in?

i use the boss se50, and like its capability. besides the nice leslie
simulation, it also has the decent vocoder patch. rugged, true stereo,
and not much costly.


From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu May 20 10:08:29 1993
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Date: Thu, 20 May 93 10:05:12 EDT
Original-From: aluxpo!wbf (William Fox)
Message-Id: <9305201405.AA16274@alux1.cnet.att.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Leslie Simulations
Status: OR

Previously, Kin Blas wrote:
>   Some of you on this list seem to have alot of knowledge about
> sounds and synth architectures ... I'm a guitar player trying to play
> and learn about keyboards and have no background in sound at all and was
> wondering if it was possible to simulate a Leslie effect using an LFO, TVA,
> and TVF?  I've tried doing this, and it just doesn't
> sound right.  Am I on the right track?  Should I give up?

and D.A.C. Crowell replied:
> Oh, _way_ wrong track. The thing that makes the Leslie effect what it is
> is not just the tremolo effect done by the shifting amplitudes, there's
> also a component of the sound that has to do with the Doppler effect. 
> Remember, in a _real_ Leslie (the big humongous type with the dual horns,

I'm a guitar player, too, but I listen to the keyboard player in my band
whenever he rants on about his B3 samples and simulating leslie
speakers.  By the way, he feels that a B3 sample he got with his ASR-10
does an admirable job of leslie simulation using the effects in the
keyboard.  Bob used to take three leslies on the road with him in his
younger days.  (They are, after all, only about 40 watts.)  He says you
have to consider their physical makeup: the horns are rotating at a
different speed than the baffle associated with the woofer.  So there's
tremelo, doppler upshift as one horn approaches, simultaneous doppler
downshift as the other horn retreats, and phasing and flanging effects.
Not an easy thing to model in an effect unit's software!  Bob suggests
you buy a Boss SE-50 effects unit as it does a good job and provides you
with all those other effect goodies like distortion for that Keith
Emerson slightly overdriven sound.  To simulate a leslie yourself
requires a lot of knowledge of (a) synthesis and (b) the leslie's
makeup.  What machine are you using?  Cheap and dirty could be chorus +
tremelo but it's not as easy as that!

Bill Fox

P. S.  Later on, there was a 100 watt model and there was a company that
would hot rod a leslie with a 300 watt Crown amp and high wattage
speakers.  Those didn't need to be miked as they could rip your face
off!

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Wed May 19 23:47:57 1993
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From: dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (Andrew C. Crowell)
Message-Id: <9305200348.AA17008@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu>
Subject: The infamous Leslie effect
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Date: Wed, 19 May 93 22:48:30 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9305192229.AA00237@guam.island.com>; from "Kin Blas" at May 19, 93 3:29 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: OR

Previously, Kin Blas wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
>   Thanks to all of you who replied to my Vocoder question!
> 
>   Some of you on this list seem to have alot of knowledge about
> sounds and synth architectures ... I'm a guitar player trying to play
> and learn about keyboards and have no background in sound at all and was
> wondering if it was possible to simulate a Leslie effect using an LFO, TVA,
> and TVF?  I've tried doing this, and it just doesn't
> sound right.  Am I on the right track?  Should I give up?

Oh, _way_ wrong track. The thing that makes the Leslie effect what it is
is not just the tremolo effect done by the shifting amplitudes, there's
also a component of the sound that has to do with the Doppler effect. 
Remember, in a _real_ Leslie (the big humongous type with the dual horns,
about the size of an old fridge, and about as heavy as a Sherman tank),
you have two actual speaker ports in rotation. Now, as these move toward
the listener in the rotation plane, you get the compression, and away,
the rarefaction, that one finds when you encounter the Doppler effect
out in non-musical conditions. It's possible to simulate the tremolo
effect by using an LFO with a 0-degree and 180-degree phase output of a sine
wave, and feeding this to two VCA control ins, one with the signal
outputted to the left, the other to the right, then by adjusting the 
input trim, you can get _close_...but without the addition of the Doppler
effect, you can't get this. It's why companies have struggled long and
hard to replace those damned huge cabinets with a box for so long, with
such varying degrees of success.
	Oh, almost forgot...that tremolo solution only really works well
if you've got one of those big synths with the patch cords and so forth...
you know, the humongous ones, about the size of an old fridge, and about
as heavy as a Sherman tank...:)

D.A.C. Crowell
Computer Music Project/School of Music
University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
(dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu)

-- 

