From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Sat May  1 19:08:54 1993
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Date: Sat, 1 May 93 16:08:31 PDT
From: till@lucid.com (Don Tillman)
Message-Id: <9305012308.AA23800@acid-rain.lucid.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
In-Reply-To: Forrest Cook's message of Thu, 29 Apr 1993 17:09:14 -0600 <9304292309.AA21447@stout.atd.ucar.EDU>
Subject: Rebuilding older synths
Reply-To: till@lucid.com
Status: OR

   Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 17:09:14 -0600
   From: Forrest Cook <cook@stout.atd.ucar.EDU>

   Ok, this sounds interesting, the Odyssey has a pretty hissy mixer and/or VCA
   stage, I might just try re-opp-ing mine.
                           ^^^^^^^^^^
Jeeze, somebody call the verb police before violence erupts.

I wouldn't recommend trying this as the Odyssey has no op-amps in the audio
path.  (!!!)  It might be an improvement to replace the VCA's CA3080 with a
lower noise CA3280, but it's a lot of work mechanically 'cause the pinouts
are so different.

   Here's the kicker: Anybody have a schematic and a manual for an Odyssey?

Yep.

  -- Don


From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 30 02:09:04 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 23:08:44 PDT
From: till@lucid.com (Don Tillman)
Message-Id: <9304300608.AA21457@acid-rain.lucid.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
In-Reply-To: Ricard Wolf's message of Thu, 29 Apr 93 14:31:14 MET DST <m0noXli-000phUC@axisab.axis.se>
Reply-To: till@lucid.com
Status: OR

   From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
   Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 14:31:14 MET DST

   >> In many synths (the Moog/Realistic MG-1 and ARP Odyssey spring to
   >> mind), the ring modulator is simply an XOR gate fed with the pulse 
   >> wave outputs from two oscillators. Gives the typical 'bell' harmonics, 
   >> but the output is of course a digitial pulse wave of sorts, so it has 
   >> a bit of a 'square wave' sound.  At any rate it's cheaper.

   > Call me old-fashioned, but it almost can't be. The Elektor ringmodulator
   > contains only two ic's, the 1496 and a TL074. Plus a bunch of resistors,
   > some 30 and a few C's. The 1496 and 074 are both cheap. This really is a
   > low cost module, by any standard.

It also needs input level pots, trim pots, a trimming procedure during
manufacturing and maintainance, some way to select the inputs and stuff
like that.  Also, a circuit with a 1496 requires a bit more electrical
design expertise.  All this is expensive when you have to manufacture a
product.

   > Those two oscillators you mention, are they internal to the Ringmodulator
   > in the Moogs and ARPs? Plus, there is more to a ringmodulator than this.

   I agree, it is cheating a bit.  The MG-1 and ARP Odyssey don't have triangle
   waves, let alone sine waves from the oscillators (just to avoid confusion:
   these aren't modular gear), so no matter what ring mod you use, you're going
   to get a lot of harmonics. The oscillators are the synth's main oscillators,
   and the ring modulator is probably just thrown in for fun and because it's
   simple.

   > The fun of a ringmodulator, as far as I now know, is in sine waves,
   > certainly nothing with a lot of harmonics in it.

   Yep, the XOR is not a true ring modulator, but it does produce a similar
   output waveshape compared to a real ring mod fed with pulse waves. It's ok
   for integrated synths, but probably nothing for modular stuff. I just
   thought I' mentionit.

Right, an XOR gate is only a ring modulator when you're assured that the
inputs are square waves.  And this is the case for the Odyssey where the
XOR-ring-modulator inputs are wired to the square waves outputs of the
VCOs.

  -- Don


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To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Rebuilding older synths
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 17:09:14 -0600
From: Forrest Cook <cook@stout.atd.ucar.EDU>
Status: OR

Ok, this sounds interesting, the Odyssey has a pretty hissy mixer and/or VCA
stage, I might just try re-opp-ing mine.

Here's the kicker: Anybody have a schematic and a manual for an Odyssey?
Mine has a black face plate and all of the cv in/outs.

Forrest Cook
cook@stout.atd.ucar.edu WB0RIO
{husc6|rutgers|ames|gatech}!ncar!stout!cook

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 18:54:15 1993
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From: dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu (Andrew C. Crowell)
Message-Id: <9304292245.AA04846@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu>
Subject: Rebuilding older synths
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 17:45:28 CDT
In-Reply-To: <9304292208.AA04775@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu>; from "Mail Delivery Subsystem" at Apr 29, 93 5:08 pm
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL5]
Status: OR

> Previously, Chris Meyer wrote:
> > 
> > I'll weigh in on the side of saying I've heard metal film resistors are
> > quieter.
> > 
> > It does open up the subject of updating analog synths as an audiophile
> > might restore an old piece of audio equipment - newer, better-spec op
> > amps, metal film resistors, replace the electrolytics with new ones (since
> > they tend to die first - use bigger ones in the power supply to better
> > filter the voltage lines), maybe some polyprop caps to replace the ceramic
> > disks (oh yeah, tantalums are good too) and better wire for internal
> > bridging to other PC boards and the jacks on the front panel. And replace
> > the jacks with new Switchcrafts, and open pots with sealed ones.
> 
> Actually, I've seen the end result of one such "restoration". The Moog
> Series 900 modular in use in studio B in the Experimental Music Studios
> here at UIUC has been subjected to similar reworkings, as well as a full
> factory-spec recalibration. The result? Quite spectacular. A very quiet,
> stable instrument. And no, it really didn't change the sound versus what
> I've encountered in other Moog modular systems. Now, for other synths,
> the viability of theis sort of reworking might vary and it _may_well_
> change the sound of the instrument...but on this one encounter with a
> "restored" modular, I'd have to say that the end result is possibly
> worth the hassle.
> 
> D.A.C. Crowell
> Computer Music Project/School of Music
> University of Illinois at Urbana/Champaign
> (dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu)
> 
> -- 
> 


-- 

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 17:06:01 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 14:02:01 -0700
From: Chris Meyer <cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us>
Message-Id: <199304292102.AA15939@well.sf.ca.us>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, cook@stout.atd.ucar.EDU
Subject: Re:  resistor noise
Status: OR

I'll weigh in on the side of saying I've heard metal film resistors are
quieter.

It does open up the subject of updating analog synths as an audiophile
might restore an old piece of audio equipment - newer, better-spec op
amps, metal film resistors, replace the electrolytics with new ones (since
they tend to die first - use bigger ones in the power supply to better
filter the voltage lines), maybe some polyprop caps to replace the ceramic
disks (oh yeah, tantalums are good too) and better wire for internal
bridging to other PC boards and the jacks on the front panel. And replace
the jacks with new Switchcrafts, and open pots with sealed ones.

You might end up with a cleaner, clearer, more stable synth with extended
frequency range. Or you might ruin the characteristic grunge and corrosion
that made it sound unique.

 - CM

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 12:44:12 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 09:40:06 PDT
From: till@lucid.com (Don Tillman)
Message-Id: <9304291640.AA20587@acid-rain.lucid.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
In-Reply-To: Yoshiaki_Ohshima@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU's message of Thu, 29 Apr 93 05:14:43 -0400 <27628.736074883@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU>
Reply-To: till@lucid.com
Status: OR

   Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 05:14:43 -0400
   From: Yoshiaki_Ohshima@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU

   the original point being that 071 is mediocre by today's standard, and 
   i might avoid using it at least for the main audio signal path.
   if 071 drastically improves it, shouldn't 1022 do it super drastically?
   just wondering...

I wouldn't call the 071 mediocre, though certainly there are better op-amps
available... but at a premium price and a bit harder to get hold of.  And
if the synth on your workbench has several dozen op-amps in it, that's
going to be mighty expensive.  If you can get a good deal on some real
premium op-amps, that's great.

For the main audio signal path (say, after the mixer) the 1022 might be a
very good choice.  Even better would be to eliminate the op-amps entirely,
but that's another topic.

 -- Don




From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 12:41:05 1993
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To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: resistor noise
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 1993 10:38:13 -0600
From: Forrest Cook <cook@stout.atd.ucar.EDU>
Status: OR

Rick Jansen sez:
> >advantage of metal film Rs is that they are low-noise and more
> >stable. In some places 1% resistors are used, but they were as easy to get
> >are they more stable? you mean over a period of time?
>My notion is, but don't shoot me for it, that metal film R's are lower noise,
>and less temperature dependent than carbon ones. I didn't think more about it
>than this.

Well, to toss in an opposing view, I've heard that the metal film resistors are
not as quiet as carbon and that the GOOD ONES are the metal wire resistors as
long as you can handle a little inductance such as in audio circuits.
I haven't researched this myself, but heard it from a good analog engineer.

Metal film resistors are typically 1% tolerance, carbons come in 20%, 10%, and
5%, and wire ones come anywhere from 0.1% to 10% from what I've seen.

Forrest Cook
cook@stout.atd.ucar.edu WB0RIO
{husc6|rutgers|ames|gatech}!ncar!stout!cook

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 03:37:26 1993
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From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 09:32:17 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.1 12/13/89)
To: till@lucid.com, analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

> Some of my faves are the 2N5210 (NPN) / 2N5087 (PNP) and the 2N3904 (NPN) /
> 2N3906 (PNP).  Also the 2N5457-2N5459 (NFET) and 2N5460-2N5462 (PFET).
> 
> (I don't get out of the country much so I can't speak for the European
> numbers.) 

Often, it is possible to get American transistors in Europe, with not too
much hassle. BTW, for Moog freaks... the 2N3904/2N3906 are commonly used
in machines such as the Prodigy and the Rogue.

/Ricard

-- 
Ricard Wolf                   / | \  / | /-           email: ricard@axis.se
Axis Communications AB       /__|  \/  | \__          uucp:  axisab.se!ricard
S - 223 70 LUND             /   |  /\  |    \         Tel:   +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN                     /    | /  \ | \__/         Fax:   +46 46 13 61 30
           -- "There is this killing game - and my head will roll" --

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 03:21:02 1993
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From: Peter Cassidy <peterc@comm.mot.com>
Subject: Good Ol' BC107
To: ANALOGUE@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Analogue Mail List)
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 8:16:59 BST
Mailer: Elm [revision: 66.25]
Status: OR

About the BC107. It was discontinued about 10 years ago. I find them very hard
to get, but BC109's are very common and seem to work in every application I 
tried. The 'C' versions are low-noise. Here's the spec I have :


BC107B   NPN   Uceo 45   Ucbo 50  Ic(A) .10   Ptot(mW) 100  hFE MIN 180 

MAX 460 @ .002 - 5 A   Uce(V) 5  Ft 150 MHz


BC107C   NPN   Uceo 45   Ucbo 50  Ic(A) .10   Ptot(mW) 100  hFE MIN 380 

MAX 800 @ .002 - 5 A   Uce(V) 5  Ft 150 MHz



BC109C   NPN   Uceo 20   Ucbo 30  Ic(A) .10   Ptot(mW) 100  hFE MIN 380 

MAX 800 @ .002 - 5 A   Uce(V) 5  Ft 150 MHz


I have more info on European transistors if anyone needs it.

--
Regards,

Pete

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
|                  M O T O R O L A   B . V .   I R E L A N D                 |
|                  -----------------------------------------                 |
| Peter Cassidy - T.S.E Dublin        | Phone : 353-1-840-8866  Ext. 417     |
| MACCVM  : C10404                    | X400  : peterc@comm.mot.com          |
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 29 03:00:42 1993
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 00:00:17 PDT
From: till@lucid.com (Don Tillman)
Message-Id: <9304290700.AA19543@acid-rain.lucid.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
In-Reply-To: Ricard Wolf's message of Wed, 28 Apr 93 15:44:32 MET DST <m0noCR7-000pfoC@axisab.axis.se>
Reply-To: till@lucid.com
Status: OR

   From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
   Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 15:44:32 MET DST

   > for other things than synth, i'm in need of bc107's. but i've been
   > unable to identify the rank (except i unplug 'em and measure the beta
   > and other parameters on the test rig). what i have were made by siemens
   > in 1970 or 1971, and in a small metal can package. i am going to get
   > spares from somewhere. i hear motorola and philips still make them.
   > what is the "c" designation? and how do you identify the rank, as i
   > don't find any such labeled on siemens ones....

   This has appeared before, but... The BC107 series has been replaced by
   the BC547 series, and is basically our common-or-garden European NPN
   transistor, like the 2N3904 (or was that 2N3906). 

I agree.  The specific choice for transistors used in electronic music gear
isn't all that important as long as the minimum requirements of the design
are met.  Even if the original is available it's often better to substitute
one with lower noise or higher gain.  Of course you can't do it blindly,
you have to watch out for the occassional goofy design that relies on a
weird feature of a specific or selected transistor.

Some of my faves are the 2N5210 (NPN) / 2N5087 (PNP) and the 2N3904 (NPN) /
2N3906 (PNP).  Also the 2N5457-2N5459 (NFET) and 2N5460-2N5462 (PFET).

(I don't get out of the country much so I can't speak for the European
numbers.) 
						     
   > >TL071C is a FET opamp with very low noise specs. Ideally suited for a
   > >synthesizer or any other low-noise application, like preamps.

Yep.

   > if i were to replace 741 with something with the fet input without
   > affecting the specs, i'd look for lf13741 because that's exactly
   > what 13741 was made for. if i were to use an fet opamp for low noise
   > and not mind deviating from the original spec, lt1022ch or lt1022ac
   > come to mind rather than 071c or 356h. am i missing something?

   Usually a 741 was used because one needed a simple op-amp for the job, 
   so the 071 series should do just fine.

Better than that, swapping in a TL07x for a 741/1458 is likely to
drastically improve the performance of any piece of audio gear.
(Again, with the caveats I mentioned above.)

  -- Don



From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Wed Apr 28 22:16:07 1993
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To: Ricard Wolf <ricard@axis.se>
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 28 Apr 93 15:44:32 +0700."
             <m0noCR7-000pfoC@axisab.axis.se> 
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 22:15:09 -0400
Message-Id: <26208.736049709@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU>
From: Yoshiaki_Ohshima@SPEECH1.CS.CMU.EDU
Status: OR


>This has appeared before, but... The BC107 series has been replaced by

please pardon me about revisiting the thread. i joined the analogue
list very recently and didn't know about it. thanks for the input...


							--aki

p.s. anyone has further comments on the formant's ring modulator bit??

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 13:15:37 1993
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From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 18:28:27 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.1 12/13/89)
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: synth electronics from Maplin
Status: OR

Someone asked for the address of Maplin, a British mail-order (and retail
outlet, too) firm selling lots of electronics and related stuff: they've
got a few goodies for synth builders too in the form of IC's. A look
through the '92 catalogue shows the following:

SSM 2024:  quad VCA (current controlled actually, but what the heck)
SSM 2044:  4-pole VCF (remember the rev 1 Prophets and the Polysix? This
           is an improved version of the same chip).
SSM 2045:  2/4-pole VCF with VC mixer
SSM 2047:  4-pole VCF with VC pan  (no VCO's I'm afraid, though)
SSM 2300:  8-channel demultiplexer (a la 4051) with built in S/H
E510:      Keyboard scanner with MIDI output.
MN 3004, MN3207, MN 3011, MN3101: 512, 1024, 3328-stage BBD's and clock gen
LM1035:    VC volume, tone, balance control.
M093:      12x8 crosspoint analog switch. Useful for patching, perhaps.
UM5100:    simple voice-quality sampler chip (32K memory max)
MSM6322:   pitch shifter. No, it's not a PPG waveterm, but it's fun for
           speach. Sound quality, especially when shifted, is more like
           a low-end AM radio. Still, fun to play with.
MF10:      2x 2-pole switched capacitor filter.
M112:      'organ on a chip'. MPU-controlled chip for generating 
           polyphonic voicing using built in top-octave-generator and
           devider. Limited enveloping available, no filter.

They've got a catalogue which contains chip pinouts and perhaps an
application example or two. They're mailing address is

Maplin Electronics
P.O. Box 3
Rayleigh
Essex
ENGLAND SS6 2BR

I've ordered the odd stuff from them (I live in Sweden) using my VISA card
and have had no problems. However, you really need the catalogue, since their
order codes are weird (like 'UL19V' for the '2044).

/Ricard

-- 
Ricard Wolf                   / | \  / | /-           email: ricard@axis.se
Axis Communications AB       /__|  \/  | \__          uucp:  axisab.se!ricard
S - 223 70 LUND             /   |  /\  |    \         Tel:   +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN                     /    | /  \ | \__/         Fax:   +46 46 13 61 30
  -- "Und wenn ich diese Taste dr~ck' spielt er ein kleines Musikst~ck" --

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 12:55:22 1993
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 09:54:43 -0700
From: Chris Meyer <cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us>
Message-Id: <199304231654.AA11478@well.sf.ca.us>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, wbf@aluxpo.att.com
Subject: Re:  Programming Tips
Status: OR

Out-of-tune FM oscs just detune the sidebands as well, creating more beating.
The stronger the modulation (to a degree), the stronger the sidebands (although
this is not 100% true - you have to mock it up on Softsynth and then take an
FFT to really get an idea what's happening). So, modulation with noise at
a low level just adds some low-level "dirt" to the sound; low-level pitched
FM creates weak complex sidebands (complexity being roughly related to the
ratio between modulating and carrier frequencies).

 - CM

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 11:51:08 1993
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From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Message-Id: <9304231550.AA01980@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Programming tips... (fwd)
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Analogue Synth Mailing List)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 8:50:59 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: OR


>It wasn't until years after both of those events that I read that by
>making the modulator the SAME frequency as the carrier, you
>generate the usefull result of HARMONIC overtones.  <LIGHT BULB TURNS
>ON>  So when the two frequencies don't match, the overtones are
>INHAMONIC like in bells!

Not just the same, but any integer multiple. 

>Using my TX81Z to do this, I now wish I could take what I know now back
>to the OSU emusic lab and patch a VCO through a VCA (and maybe even a
>VCF!) to feed the FM input of a VCO->VCF->VCA.  (Both VCOs set at
>sinewave.)
>
>	VCO1->VCA1------>VCO2->VCF->VCA2
>
>So for me, will somebody please patch this on their modular?  How
>easy is it to match the frequencies of both VCOs?  Since analog's fatness
>comes from, in part, the fact that the VCOs will drift, how does it
>affect this patch?  FM synthesis on an analog synthesizer; what a
>concept!

Bill, this may have just made your "what do I buy next" question a lot
simpler. The Xpander does this straight out of the box, and a lot of
well-known Xpander users like ex-KEYBOARD staffer and recording artist
Ted Greenwald believe that it's the last great unmined motherlode of
neat new sounds for the beastie. (My vote goes to the Lag Processor.)

-- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bow to the obvious superiority of a culture that coins words like "snog."

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 11:45:57 1993
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From: metlay@netcom.com (metlay)
Message-Id: <9304231545.AA01302@netcom.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: The demise of Moog, ARP, SCI, OBIE, etc. (fwd)
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Analogue Synth Mailing List)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 8:45:53 PDT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.3 PL11]
Status: OR


>Mike, you are seriously truncating history. Oberheim was killed the
>first time by mis-projecting the Matrix 12's sales. Sequential was in
>trouble well before the Studio 440; it was in trouble before the
>Multitrak, VS, 2000, and 440. And none of them did well enough to save
>it. And the bank closed them only when they got the first batch of
>3000s out the door.

Better truncated than wrong. I won't speak of areas on which I have
insufficient data, and the eras you mentioned were ones where very little
of the financial problems of Obie or SCI got to my ears. I could have 
stated that everything after the SixTrak was a desperate move to generate
money, but without proof I felt it was better to leave a hole. You were
a lot closer to those guys than I was, but you weren't here to answer
the question, so I did what I could and waited for you to fill in the 
holes. |->

-- 
mike metlay * atomic city * box 81175 pgh pa 15217-0675 * metlay@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
I bow to the obvious superiority of a culture that coins words like "snog."

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 10:42:04 1993
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 10:34:17 EDT
Original-From: aluxpo!wbf (William Fox)
Message-Id: <9304231434.AA26239@alux1.cnet.att.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Programming Tips
Status: OR

Chris Meyer on programming tips:
>        ... For complex sounds, modulation is the key. I love synths
> that allow you to route VCOs to modulate other VCOs, ...

Well, I guess your post preceeded mine on FM on analog (as did others
apparently!).  Can you answer my previous questions on drift effects?

>                                                  ... the cutoff of
> VCFs, and maybe even the VCA (for a little ring-mod action). These make
> the tone much more complex. You only have to put in a little to get some
> action going; don't overdo it. ...

You're not just whistling Dixie!  Subtlety or else FM (digital or
analog) goes astray quite quickly.  That's why my newbie experiments led
me to believe for so long that subaudio modulation was the only useful FM.
Maybe that's a contributing factor as to why so many people have been
afraid to program their own FM synths.  (Ignoring the lack of sliders
and knobs, of course!)  Too bad I had nobody to correct my course way
back when.

>                          ... A tad of noise as a mod source is also
> very useful ...

I can't hear in my mind's ear what this could do.  What do you modulate
with noise that doesn't sound like the noise source itself?  (VCO, VCA,
VCF, ...?)

Bill Fox

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 09:35:59 1993
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 09:33:42 EDT
Original-From: aluxpo!wbf (William Fox)
Message-Id: <9304231333.AA19875@alux1.cnet.att.com>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Re: Programming tips...
Status: OR

Talking about programming tips made me come up with one; if you can put
up with the round about way I get there...

When I took electronic music at Ohio State, like every novice, I ran a
VCO's output directly to another VCO's FM input.  I "discovered" that if
the first VCO's frequency was subaudio, playing the role of an LFO, I
got this cool sound.  But if I ran the frequency up into the audio range
where you start to hear sidebands instead of the frequency sweeping
effect, it sound horrible and was "totally useless."  I eventually
refined my process by routing the LFO's output through a mixer to
control its depth of modulation.  Woopee.

When Yamaha came to Columbus, Ohio in the personage of Bo Tomlyn (sp?)
to push the DX7, I asked the "simple" question, "What IS fm synthesis?"
After a few brush offs, and through my persistence, he finally told me
to go read Chowning.  Well, we were so pissed at each other that even if
I'd have been able to understand what name he said, I was incapable, due
to my state of mind, to remember who he said, anyway.  Only in hind
sight do I know what he said.

It wasn't until years after both of those events that I read that by
making the modulator the SAME frequency as the carrier, you
generate the usefull result of HARMONIC overtones.  <LIGHT BULB TURNS
ON>  So when the two frequencies don't match, the overtones are
INHAMONIC like in bells!

Using my TX81Z to do this, I now wish I could take what I know now back
to the OSU emusic lab and patch a VCO through a VCA (and maybe even a
VCF!) to feed the FM input of a VCO->VCF->VCA.  (Both VCOs set at
sinewave.)

	VCO1->VCA1------>VCO2->VCF->VCA2

So for me, will somebody please patch this on their modular?  How
easy is it to match the frequencies of both VCOs?  Since analog's fatness
comes from, in part, the fact that the VCOs will drift, how does it
affect this patch?  FM synthesis on an analog synthesizer; what a
concept!

Bill Fox

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 08:58:32 1993
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From: ricard@axis.se (Ricard Wolf)
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 14:43:14 MET DST
X-Mailer: Mail User's Shell (7.0.1 12/13/89)
To: metlay@netcom.com (metlay), jdisegi@acs.bu.edu (Jonathan Disegi)
Subject: Re: The demise of Moog, ARP, SCI, OBIE, etc.
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

> On the flip side, anyone who's followed the industry can point at
> the products that sank the companies. For Moog it was the Memorymoog.

(sigh) Pity pity. The memorymoog was a great instrument, but I guess
it wasn't reliable enough, or popular enough (sigh)...

/Ricard

-- 
Ricard Wolf                   / | \  / | /-           email: ricard@axis.se
Axis Communications AB       /__|  \/  | \__          uucp:  axisab.se!ricard
S - 223 70 LUND             /   |  /\  |    \         Tel:   +46 46 19 18 63
SWEDEN                     /    | /  \ | \__/         Fax:   +46 46 13 61 30
  -- "Und wenn ich diese Taste dr~ck' spielt er ein kleines Musikst~ck" --

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 02:13:05 1993
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 93 15:12:42 JST
From: steve@crl.hitachi.co.jp (Steven Collins)
Return-Path: <steve@crl.hitachi.co.jp>
Message-Id: <9304230612.AA01074@hcrlgw.crl.hitachi.co.jp>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Programming tips...
Status: OR


Metlay asks::
>Any other programming tips out there?

Well, first a comment on the CS-30.  You can only use the output of VCO2 to
modulate VCO1 (or is it the other way around?).  Anyhow point being, you can't
route the VCOs to anything else at all, which is a pity.  Still it does have
that nice band pass facility, and an EXTERNAL input can modulate *everything*
so works great when hooked up to another CS-30 (I'm sure!).

Anyhow, an interesting performance issue:  I created some sounds recently
which require dymamic control of the de-tune knob.  I had effectively ring
modulated VCO2 with VCO1 (or the other way around).  Then finally this was
further modulated using a knob which I have no idea what it does (I have an
original Japanese manual which isn;t much use to me!) but I think it further
modulates the output of VCO2.  End effect is some great modulation sounds,
however, sounds too ring modulated and goes out of tune if you play up or
down around a particular note.  However, if you adjust the de-tune as you 
play, you can effectively adjust the ring mod. hot spot to bring it back into
sync.  You get some really great ring sweeps this way, ie: play a note, then
drop down an octave, the ring mod goes haywire, but slowly adjust the detune
and you get back into sync.  After a bit of practice, you can get it just
right.  Vangelis uses this technique a lot, or at least it sounds that same.

Stick portamento on the lot and play with the VCF key-follow and its just
perfect for a solo.  Easily the best sound I've discovered on the CS-30, which
is such a great little machine.  

By the way, hit an interesting problem... I used the CS-30 sequencer trigger
out to for the arpeggio in on my Juno-6.  However, I discovered that the
Juno-6 triggers on the -ve clock edge and the CS-30 on the +ve.  Drat.  I
suppose I need an inverter now.  Anyway, you can get some interesting interplay
between the 2, as they are effectively 1/2 beat out of sync.  Its a pity you
can't adjust the pulse width on the trigger out on the CS-30, this would help.
The SQ10 does this, and boy is it useful.

steve
---
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| Steven Collins, Visiting Researcher | email: steve@crl.hitachi.co.jp         |
| Hitachi Central Research Lab. Tokyo | ph: (0423)-23-1111 fax: (0423) 27-7742 |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------------+

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 00:06:10 1993
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Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:05:29 -0700
From: Chris Meyer <cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us>
Message-Id: <199304230405.AA09919@well.sf.ca.us>
To: jdisegi@acs.bu.edu, metlay@netcom.com
Subject: Re: The demise of Moog, ARP, SCI, OBIE, etc.
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
Status: OR

{i]Your Oberheim history psot-Matrix 12 is pretty accurate. But we must
remember what got them into that bind in the first place.

As for Marcus and Tom working together again, in truth, they never collabaorated
on an instrument in the first place - Tom did the early ones (with some
electronics designed by Jim Cooper); Marcus and his philosophy took ober
(Fruedian slip - over) later. They are different in their approaches as
well.

 - CM

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Fri Apr 23 00:03:37 1993
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Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:02:56 -0700
From: Chris Meyer <cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us>
Message-Id: <199304230402.AA09311@well.sf.ca.us>
To: jdisegi@acs.bu.edu, metlay@netcom.com
Subject: Re: The demise of Moog, ARP, SCI, OBIE, etc.
Cc: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu
Status: OR

Mike, you are seriously truncating history. Oberheim was killed the
first time by mis-projecting the Matrix 12's sales. Sequential was in
trouble well before the Studio 440; it was in trouble before the
Multitrak, VS, 2000, and 440. And none of them did well enough to save
it. And the bank closed them only when they got the first batch of
3000s out the door.

 - CM

From analogue-request@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Apr 22 23:59:21 1993
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Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 20:58:54 -0700
From: Chris Meyer <cybpunk@well.sf.ca.us>
Message-Id: <199304230358.AA08325@well.sf.ca.us>
To: analogue@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu, dacc@cmp-rt.music.uiuc.edu
Subject: Re: The demise of Moog, ARP, SCI, OBIE, etc.
Status: OR

A lot of Sequential's death was due to over-estimating how fast the
computer MIDI market would grow. One year after they did their first
CM-64 sequencer, they projected 50% or their revenue to be from software.
It didn't happen that fast, so they had a real cash bind.

Oberheim over-projected sales of Matrix 12s (in a now-infamous marketing
vs. engineering meeting where hearts won out over minds) by a factor of
10, and bought parts to do that. Cash flow crunch. Through the restructuring,
the former lawyer managed to end up with control of the company.

At least, those are the lies I know and repeat.

 - CM

