
What is Hitalia?

On HIT, the Highly Imaginative Technology mailing list, where discus-
sions on exactly that - highly imaginative technology and science
fiction - takes place, this message appeared in April 1993:

:Fellow taxpayers,
:
:Let's build a government.
:
:We've just landed on an Earth-like planet, all of us of HIT - we're
:all on one big ship.
:
:We step down onto the surface, all who we are, all with the abilities,
:needs, beliefs, (prejudices?), just as we are.  We have no money (no
:established medium of exchange), no government, no institutions of any
:kind.
:
:Here's the environment:
:
:Earth-like atmosphere, geology, seasons, resources (no civilization,
:no cities, no-one but us).
:
:Remarkably, the flora and fauna have developed to a point exactly
:parellel to Earth, 1700.
:
:We have no contact with old earth.  Our ship contains nothing we can
:use here.
:Moot point, anyway, since it was destroyed on landing.  We have no
:other means of space travel or off planet communications.
:
:We have landed in April, in a place very like North Carolina, about
:100 miles inland.  We are all well, none are injured, it is 9a.m. EST.
:
:I'd like to name this place Hitalia, O.K.?
:

This led to more than 150 followups under a timespan of several weeks.
Together, all these messages formed a story, interesting in many ways.
Although the story consists of parts written by many people, it can be
read much like a book or a diary.  As one listmember recently put it,
"it has all the elements of designed fiction.  It has a significant
political theme, there is violence, science, detective work, love,
heroism, metaphysics, and a great surprize ending."


I happened to save all Hitalia-related messages in a file.  That file
is "hitalia".
The members of HIT collectively decided that the "hitalia" file be put
in the Public Domain.  We hereby make the file available for anonymous
FTP.  If you copy it, please don't delete this introduction.  It
provides some context so that people can get a quick impression on how
and why the Hitalia story exists.

Disclaimer: Nobody is to be held liable for anything.

Some people's names were edited, because we thought making the names
public was unnecessary.

Here follows the Hitalia story.


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:59:55 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      Re: Taxes and Technology

Fellow taxpayers,

Let's build a government.

We've just landed on an Earth-like planet, all of us of HIT - we're all on one
big ship.

We step down onto the surface, all who we are, all with the abilities, needs,
beliefs, (prejudices?), just as we are.  We have no money (no established
medium of exchange), no government, no institutions of any kind.

Here's the environment:

Earth-like atmosphere, geology, seasons, resources (no civilization, no cities,
no-one but us).

Remarkably, the flora and fauna have developed to a point exactly parellel to
Earth, 1700.

We have no contact with old earth.  Our ship contains nothing we can use here.
Moot point, anyway, since it was destroyed on landing.  We have no other means
of space travel or off planet communications.

We have landed in April, in a place very like North Carolina, about 100 miles
inland.  We are all well, none are injured, it is 9a.m. EST.

I'd like to name this place Hitalia, O.K.?

Norm


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 17:41:36 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Re: Home-made Gov't.

Norm,

First of all, I would suggest (as did George Washington in his farewell
address) to avoid anything even vaguely resembling a political party.
People are too likely to follow without question someone who belongs to
"their" political party.  Without even bothering to hear what these people
have to say, many people say "I'll vote for her because she is a
such-and-such and I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last person on the
planet because he is a thus-and-so."

Secondly, since I suppose there must be a leader or leaders, rather than a
single figure-head, I would suggest having three people.  Allow people to
nominate themselves and, following Robert's Rules after the nomination has
been seconded and so on, once you have the nominees, (at least at first) choose
the three people at random.  While this isn't the way to go about it on a
permanent basis, since most of us are unfamiliar with each other, any actual
voting would be useless and would run the risk of turning into an "I'll vote
for him because he has a nice hair cut" or "I'll vote for her because she
has a nice smile" type of election.  (BTW, isn't it interesting that in
Middle English, the word "nice" meant foolish?  I was disturbed to find out
that all my life people have been telling me to have a foolish day.)  And
keep the terms of office short.  Once everyone gets to know each other
better, then go to your standard type of popular election.  Opinions?

You know, doing this reminds me of the scene in Stephen King's _The Stand_
when all of the people have arrived at the Free Zone in Boulder and they
have the big town meeting to establish a form of government.  Does it remind
anyone else of that or is it just me?

Great idea, Norm, let's keep it going and see what happens.

Later--

Kurt


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 19:38:00 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      Re: Home-made Gov't.

I don't know, Kurt, we just got here and by George we left oldearth to get away
from taxes and government and all the complications.  I don't want an office,
too much hassel.  Do we need a government?  I'd rather have a V-8.  By the way,
that reminds me how hungry I am.

Anybody got any food?  I'll trade my hat for an apple.

Anybody notice how sharp that wind is; I'm starting to shiver.  Wonder how cold
it gets at night here on Hitalia.

Kurt, you got an apple?

Does anybody know how to build a leanto for 300 people?

Norm [':-)  (Y'all can see the hat; who'll trade for an apple?)


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 16:33:36 -0700
From: Doug
Subject:      Re: Home-made Gov't.

We have to be careful about tossing around things like "No-parties"
in the governemnt.  Parties exist because they play an important role
in representative democracies, they simplify politics for the average
person so that that person can make a rational vote.

It would be absurd to expect that every individual had enough interest in
dpolitics to exert the effort to remain informed and fully capable of
evaluating positions on every aspect of government.  People are (and will
be) for the most part engrossed in the trials and tribualtions of every day
life, such as feeding and sheltering themselves and their families.  To
expect them to remain as active in politics as would be necessary to
maintain a democracy without parties is to expect a pathalogical
devotion to politics.

A good reference for these ideas is VO Key, circa 1955.

That is, of course, assuming a democracy is the best choice for government

Given that no current structures exist (A wholly unatural situation) and
there is no history of structures, the possibilities are boundless.

How about some sort of structured anarchy (Anarchy is defined as the absence
of a leader, not chaos as most assume).  Leadership, for the most part, is
a result of conflict between social groups like nations.  If we could
manage to keep everyone withing the same social group, we could do away
with the role of leader, and perhaps run the entire government through
an adinistration and a yearly, or monthly set of referendums.
Doug


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 19:50:18 -0500
From: Bill
Subject:      Re: Home-brew Gov't

(">" preceeds snippits from the 4 messages I just got.)

> Fellow taxpayers,
> Let's build a government.

Yeah, you would bring up something like this wouldn't you?  Awright, I'll
bite.

> We have no money (no established
> medium of exchange), no government, no institutions of any kind.

Let's establish the leaf as our form of money.  Unfortunately, to make it
worth anything, we'll have to deforest most of the planet.

> Anybody got any food?  I'll trade my hat for an apple.

See that green stuff over there?  Or perhaps you might want to go after
one of the resident animals.

> We have to be careful about tossing around things like "No-parties"
> in the governemnt.  Parties exist because they play an important role
> in representative democracies, they simplify politics for the average
> person so that that person can make a rational vote.

Unfortunately, they also impose on their members a belief that is
distinctly not true: that they have all the answers to "the problems."
Each party claims that their system is _the_ way to govern, when in
fact it's only partly correct.  We need a system that will allow the
government and the people to determine issues without fear of betraying
some party.  If the people in the current US government do this, then
the party system doesn't serve the purpose of simplifying things.

Now for my pet issue:

RIGHTS:
The US was founded on a need for rights - people weren't respected where
they were, so they came here in search of their rights to freedom.
These rights were bonded into a form of government, but unfortunately
this left us with only half a government.  Noone is ever truly free,
simply by virtue of the fact that there are other people looking for
the same rights that you want.  Where there is a collision, at least one
person must give up some right.

RESPONSIBILITIES:
A responsibility is the other half of a right - you can't be permitted
a freedom unless you accept the responsibilities that go with it.  You
don't have the right to breath clean air unless you work to keep it
clean.  You don't even have the right to live unless you work to keep
your life.

Our government will need to formalize both of these facets in every
law.


Whoof, fun stuff!  Next?

Bill


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 21:47:53 EDT
From: John K
Subject:      Re: Home-brew Gov't

I'll say it again.  If we chose our "public servants" by lottery, with no
chance of a renewed term, we'd have a democracy that _could_ avoid a lot
of this rigamarole.  As to how this can be brought about, Papa,

:-)

in about three years, people will be willing to try _anything_.

John K


---
Date:         Thu, 15 Apr 1993 23:00:40 EDT
From: Chris
Subject:      Re: Taxes and Technology

Greg,
Definitely right, but it's a poor realization of "Government by the People
and For the Poeple."
If there's one thing the two party system can agreeee

Chris


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 00:41:15 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      HITALOG_1-1-1

Landfall at 9am oldearth time, unnamed planet (proposed Hitalia), no casualties,
cargo destroyed, ship damaged beyond repair.  Temperate climate, substantial
vegetation, earth nominal atmosphere, no signs of intelligent competitors.

Preliminary attempts at establishment of barter system negative. Suggested use
of tree leaves as medium of exchange.  Individual forage/hunt approach to food
needs suggested.

Proposals for social order:

        1. Election of tripartite leadership
        2. Structured anarchy, classless society
        3. Establishment of civil service-selection of leaders by lottery
        4. Two party system, democratic model

Manifesto of rights and responsibilities of citizens proposed as basis for
social equity.

Situation stable.

Endlog 1-1-1

Njp, Archivist pro-tem


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 00:55:20 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      FOOD_SHELTER

Hitalians,

It is definitely getting colder, and I am hungry.

I'm taking Bill's advice, and heading inland to forage something to eat
(since nobody wanted to trade for my hat).  I'll do a little reconisence and
report back here at the landing site in a day or so.

Be kind to each other; we're all we've got.

N.


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 09:12:52 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: Taxes and Technology

    I think "Hitalia" sounds too much like "Hitler" for my taste.
How about "The Free Confederacy?"
    My suggestion; a free association.  If you don't like it, take a
hike.  Legal rights -- not to be assaulted or stolen from (though do
we really want personal property) including by the government.
    I really think we'd have a small and (hopefully) enlightened
enough community that we could operate with a skeletal government.  I
don't know how many people are on HIT (we could name the PLANET that,
perhaps) but it's concievable that everyone would at least recognize
everyone else; that way, if abuses were taking place, no one would be
able to hide in the forests of bureaucracy.
    G.


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 09:18:47 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: HITALOG_1-1-1

    NO WAY am I taking par in another 2 party farce!  If we MUST have
parties, I say we need more than two.  The two party system on earth
got us into a lot of trouble because it developed into a bipolar set
of attitudes -- a right and a wrong, a black and a white, a series of
absolutes.  If we MUST have parties, let's have three, or five, or
some odd number so that one party can't demonize the other.
    I was hoping for a free-form collective, will tolerate most
anything else, but I sraw the line at 2 party democracy; if that's
what turns up, I'm heading for the hills, and taking my pottery and
weaving skills with me!
    G.


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 09:06:22 CDT
From: Mark S
Subject:      RE: HITALOG_1-1-1

A number of interesting problems now face our little band of castaways, one of
which should be near and dear to the hearts of all the technolophiles
stranded here on Hitalia.  Our technology is no longer relavant.  Now we have
to face a totally different world, one in which the skills of the carpenter,
the farmer and the hunter are paramount and us technogeeks are superfluous
baggage.  The dangers of this new world are both obvious and subtle.  If I
should fall and break my glasses, I'll be as helpless as a newborn babe and
totally worthless to the community.  And anyone with insulin dependent diabetes
might as well go find a high cliff.

We'd better move quickly on the problem of leadership.  Within any crowd, there
are certain to be some born bullies, and other who will be willing toadies to
them.  Without a strong leader in place, these thugs will soon be running the
place for their own satisfaction and pleasure.  I'm afraid we will find that
a democracy will never work without a strong militia to enforce the will of
the people as expressed through their elected leadership.  Our best bet is to
quickly chose someone as dictator (hopefully in the old Roman sense of the
 word) and try to unite the community behind him.  And that brings another
question to the fore.  What will be the role of women in our brave new world?
Generally, in small, primitive populations, testosterone rules.  Will this
hold true on Hitalia?

Mark S


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 10:48:12 CDT
From: Pat
Subject:      This "not so" brave new world.

Well hmm.  I think all this talk about government and other
miscellaneous junk ain't getting number one (me) anywhere!  Time to go
off and go exploring on my own without you bozos and your trying to
impose your structures upon me.  Exactly what I left that other place
for.

When/If I need your help I'll ask.  And since I can never really be
out of ear shot on this planet (guess I can read all your minds due to
some strange effect, everyone's suddenly become psychic!) I'll always
be only within communications range.

Pat


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 10:49:12 CDT
From: Pat
Subject:      Re: HITALOG_1-1-1

>     NO WAY am I taking par in another 2 party farce!  If we MUST have
> parties, I say we need more than two.  The two party system on earth
> got us into a lot of trouble because it developed into a bipolar set
> of attitudes -- a right and a wrong, a black and a white, a series of
> absolutes.  If we MUST have parties, let's have three, or five, or
> some odd number so that one party can't demonize the other.

I was planning on having parties every week!  We only get two?

Pat


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:11:58 EDT
From: Angelina
Subject:      women ...

>question to the fore.  What will be the role of women in our brave new world?
>Generally, in small, primitive populations, testosterone rules.  Will this
>hold true on Hitalia?

The obvious question to ask here is: What is the ratio of women to men?
This could affect the role of either sex.

Angelina


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 11:11:19 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      RE: HITALOG_1-1-1

    Dictatorship as a response to rule by force?  Hopefully we're all
bright enough to at least comprehend our own best interests.  We are
in a situation so perilous that no one is expendable; violence won't
get support because it's obvious that it's shooting yourself in the
foot.  I say that anyone who recommends violence is clearly a greater
danger than anyone they'd want to bully or pogromize.
    Rather than setting up political parties based on vague, abstract
ideas, why don't we set up some PRIORITIES, based on how immediate
the needs will become dangerous?
    (1) Protection from wildlife.  I think our biggest dangers are
external, not internal.
    (2) Find fresh water.
    (3) Shelter.  The weather's not bad now, but with no medicine we
don't want to take ANY chances on getting sick.
    (4) Food.  Anyone have any idea how we can find what's poisonous
and what isn't?
    (5) Utensils and tools.  Once we get the other priorities fairly
well dealt with we can turn to the production of capital goods (i.e.,
those which are used to make MORE goods).  Though I suppose we'll
need some tools for building shelter.
    (6) Garments.  What we have on is ok for now, but when it turns
cold we'll want textiles.

    With priorities set, perhaps we could organize into guilds based
on skills.  These guilds could offer representatives to express the
needs of their constituencies (though I hesitate to use such a
politically laden word).
    I think this would encourage positive interaction.  For example,
I'm a potter and a weaver (though not great at either -- just took
some classes for kicks).  I'm NOT a carpenter.  I can't do much good
without a potter's wheel and a loom.  I also realize that these
skills are low priority now.  I'd be willing to volunteer as a low
rung, low skill worker in one of the more important need-guilds
(water finders, animal defense, shelter construction) until my skills
become necessary, at which point I could design the tools I'll need,
get them from the tool makers, and then pay the tool makers with the
products.
    Once emergency needs are met, the need-guilds might evolve --
water finders become explorers, food finders become farmers,
perimeter defenders become police.
    G.


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 09:48:04 -0700
From: Doug
Subject:      Re: HITALOG_1-1-1

The reason for the current 2 party system in the US is the form of the
elections.  2 parties evolved out of the single member district
where 1 person represented 1 area and was elected through a plurality
of votes.  To get multiple parties all you have to do is have
proportional elections, where each district has multiple representative
and their voting (or the number of members when you hava alot of memebers
per district) power is determined by their votes.  You can then form
alliances etc. just like many countries in Europe.

I suggest if you want a peaceful society you focus on an agrarian society
witih a slow population growth.  As long as you have land for the population
growth to move to, any form of govrnmntyou adopt will remain reletively
peaceful in an agrarian society.

Doug


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 12:22:13 CST
From: Mike H
Subject:      Hitland (Hittalia; Hitville; Hitemhiland)

Government is not a factor with just 300 people.  If decisions must be made
I would suggest that we do as the Quakers do.  Meet to discuss the issue
until such time as a consensus is reached on the issue.  If there is major
or minor dissension the issue is not resolved until everyone has ruminated
on it and 100% agreement is reached.

Sustaining our lives would not take that much time.  The game animals have
not adapted to be afraid of us and the vegetable life has not been grazed
down.  Are you sure that some type of food replicator didn't survive the
wreck of THE SHIP?  It would certainly simplify things.


What of the religious/spiritual traditions that we won't to develop.  For
the first time we have the chance of conciously creating a religious
tradition.  Without any paper or other method of recording keeping the only
records that will survive until these are developed will be orally kept.
What of our heritage do we keep, if anything.  Do we teach our children and
grandchildren how we got here knowing that the true nature of the SHIP as
an instrument of technology will be replaced by superstitious awe and
explanation.  Hmmmmmmm.

Michael H


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:23:25 -0500
From: JTL
Subject:      Re: HITALOG_1-1-1

  Before we decide on a government, don't we need to cover all the little
basics things such as food, water, shelter,? Do we know if there is edible
food near? First we have to guarantee our survival.
  JTL


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 13:57:55 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      HOMEBREW (new planet name?)

          Looking back over the wreckage, I realize, damn, I left the
          sunscreen in the ship. While the sun blazes happily in the clean
          sky, I can feel my skin beginning to boil. Uh-oh. It's the shade
          of the trees for me, cold weather or hot.
               Before stepping away from the crowd, I take a look at the
          faces around me, each one slightly clouded and formless. No
          matter how hard I try to get close to another person, I can't
          seem to get a fix on what they look like or who they are. I can't
          even judge whether they're male or female.
               Damn, again. I also left my contacts on the ship. Great. I'm
          a foreign planet, I have no physical craft skills _and_ I'm near
          sighted. However, the plethora of psychically-linked voices
          pinging through my head is rather reassuring. At least I'm not
          alone.
               The trees I can see clearly (the sky is blue), only a stones
          throw away, over near where the lurkers are hiding behind tree
          trunks and peering suspiciously at the louder, more active
          people. And what are the people talking about? Politics. Figures.
          I consider joining the lurkers in the bushes before the whole
          discussion breaks down into a rave over whose religion gets the
          high spots for temples ... but I can't run off. Not yet.
               The guy in the middle, Norm, offers his hat to sell for an
          apple. Wasn't it his idea to go on a three-hour tour? If only we
          hadn't hired the Skipper and that funky skinny guy -- Gilliard?
          Guyana? Gilligan ... yeah, that was his name, Gilligan. Where did
          those two run off to? If we'd had some _real_ pilots, we'd back
          back home now plugging our cyberplugs into the 'puters. _And
          baseball season was just starting_! Damn.
               "Hey," I yell out, holding my hand up like I was school
          again and waiting for my turn to talk. No one says anything and
          the pings in my head are momentarily quiet, so I assume those
          around me are probably staring at me. I say, "No matter what or
          whose or how we do politics and government and money, right now
          we need to eat. If we split into teams, we can probably rustle
          some fruit to the ground and kill it without much harm to
          ourselves. Those of you who want to chase down something that
          moves, go right ahead, but remember, our medical supplies are
          limited to cutting back the skin, sucking out blood and spitting
          it on the ground. If you break a bone, we're out of whiskey.
               "Now, we won't all want to sleep together -- I could hear
          Bob snoring across the bulkhead last night and I'm too tired to
          waste sleeptime on rolling him over every 20 minutes -- so we
          should establish a homebase ... a central location we can all
          return to after hunting or after sleeping or whizzing in the
          woods (and right now, we don't have a choice ... I hope the
          leaves are soft).
               "If y'all are deadset on setting up politics, let's do it
          over a campfire tonight once we've got some grub in our guts and
          some 'semblance of a roof over our head. And to get my vote in
          early, we should do the commune-thing until we know each other
          enough to make reasonable judgements about whether or not we
          trust each other enough to _require_ a government.
               "Whadda y'all think? And did anyone bring some matches?"

          Lane
          (wondering if he can make a short wave radio out of pennies and
          coconut shells ... are there coconuts in North Carolina? Or just
          nuts? Ooooh .... there _might_ be some tobacco!)


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:09:23 -0500
From: Bob
Subject:      Survival

Chris - You were the senior crew member of the SHIP we were on when
we crashed onto this planet.  You, at least for this critical period
of time, are the one person who we can look to for some initial
direction and organization.  For our mutual survival, let the rest of
us work with Chris to organize ourselves.

Begin with the basics, food, water, shelter, safety, clothing,
inventory, scavanaging the old ship, tool-making, fire maintenance
and control, exploration and documentation.  Assign people with these
skills to these tasks, enCOURAGE everyone, keep spirits high,
continually remind us how very much we all need each other.  Ask
brother Norm to come back down out of the hills and offer him the
position of Chief Scrounger - let him pick out his own group of
3 or 4.  Make other assignments as necessary.

No, Chris, we are not making you the King or Pres or anything like
that.  As you had some authority on the SHIP while in space, we
accept you as interium leader as we get ourselves organized, fed,
warmed, and secure.  We'll hold national elections later.

Bob


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:22:02 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: Hitland (Hittalia; Hitville; Hitemhiland)

> Government is not a factor with just 300 people.  If decisions
must be made
> I would suggest that we do as the Quakers do.  Meet to discuss the issue
> until such time as a consensus is reached on the issue.  If there is major
> or minor dissension the issue is not resolved until everyone has ruminated
> on it and 100% agreement is reached.

    I don't know that 100% agreement is needed.  Besides, what we do
now will plant the seeds for future government.  The more I think of
my idea of guild goverment, the more I like it.  It runs into trouble
when the development of tech. passes mere survival (which probably
won't be until we get mining going) and the guilds are dealing
directly with one another for resources (i.e., the weavers trading
with the farmers for wool without seeing what the builders think of
it).  Still, that's when a free market develops, I imagine.

 >
> Sustaining our lives would not take that much time.  The game animals have
> not adapted to be afraid of us and the vegetable life has not been grazed
> down.  Are you sure that some type of food replicator didn't survive the
> wreck of THE SHIP?  It would certainly simplify things.

    I'd imagine we've got a pretty serious core breach by now.  If we
have to pass coercive laws right away, I'd recommend that the first
one be; don't go near SHIP.  It's likely to mess up the DNA of a
major gene pool contributor.

 > >
> What of the religious/spiritual traditions that we won't to develop.  For
> the first time we have the chance of conciously creating a religious
> tradition.  Without any paper or other method of recording keeping the only
> records that will survive until these are developed will be orally kept.
> What of our heritage do we keep, if anything.  Do we teach our children and
> grandchildren how we got here knowing that the true nature of the SHIP as
> an instrument of technology will be replaced by superstitious awe and
> explanation.  Hmmmmmmm.

    I dislike the idea of dictating religion.  I'm going believe what
I think is best, regardless of party line.  I think most people will
feel the same.  The societal question is more pertinent, I think.  Do
we try to edit language to make it less masculist?  To educate
children in love and friendship, rather than patriotism (i.e.,
suspicion and hate)?  I'd hope so.
    Any martial artists here?  If there are, do we teach our children
how to scientifically destroy the human body, or allow these
techniques to die with their current users?  It's very hard for
one human to injure another in combat without (1) a weapon or (2)
technique and training.  Do we keep such knowledge alive?  Restrict
it only to police officers?  Let it die out?  Or is it even a matter
for society to dictate?  If someone here can teach karate, maybe they
want to teach it just to their own friends and/or children, to give
them a competitive or defensive edge.
    Another important initial task is to take a survey of the skills
we citizens have at our disposal.  Any geologists who know where ores
might be found?  Metallurgists who can smelt it?  ANYONE who could
even try to be a blacksmith, or are we going to be fumbling around
trying to sharpen rocks by trial and error, or cutting our ropes with
broken pieces of pottery?
    Yet ANOTHER issue that's arisen is whatsisname who wanted to take
off for the hills.  Do we try and stop him?  I say no; but I'd like
to encourage him to share with us if he finds anything worthwhile,
such as herds of animals or fresh water.  I think he'll be back when
he gets lonely, but I don't think we should try to force him to
belong to society if he doesn't want to... he can return to trade
skins for other goods, perhaps, if he knows how to hunt.
    G.


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:30:05 GMT-600
From: Greg

    Chris for maximum boss pro tem?  Hm, I guess.  I don't really
have much leadership ability; more of a critic.
    Got some matches in my coat, but not a lot.  I'll volunteer to
build a fire and watch it at Home.  I still STRONGLY recommend that
we get the hell away from SHIP before we're all sterile or cancerous.
Geiger counter, anyone?  Can photo film be used?  (I'm not a tech
type--just a fan).
    Chris, what are your qualifications?
    G.


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 14:58:49 -0500
From: Bob
Subject:      Survival_Skills

Who has medical skills - who knows how to deliver babies - who has
any training in medicine - who can set broken bones - who knows how
to transfuse the correct blood type - etc, etc.

Who has building skills - pottery (Greg) - carpentry - fabrics -
stonemasonry - jungle survival training

Who knows botany and zoology (especially invertebrate biology)?  We
have immediate need for food and the easiest source of this is not in
the big animals but in the small, numberous animals that are easy to
catch.  Plants are fine, but as we don't yet know what is available,
we may develop severe protein deficiencies if we don't take in some
animal protein at this early stage.  Vegatarian diets are OK as long
as we have the vegetable food that provide a balanced diet.

For myself, I have training in both emergency medicine and in
wildlife biology.  I offer my talents to the group for the benefit
of our mutual survival, not for currency.  We don't need no stinking
dollars.

Don't worry about those who want to walk away from the group.  Let
them!  Their odds of dying of starvation and/or injury are much
higher that those members who opt to stay with the group.  The group
needs cohesiveness, not division.  Let those who would divide - leave.

We are not yet building a government, but rather a society.  The
goal we are attempting is survival, not porkbellie highway projects.

Bob


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:00:55 CDT
From: Pat
Subject:      Re: Hitland (Hittalia; Hitville; Hitemhiland)

>     Yet ANOTHER issue that's arisen is whatsisname who wanted to take
> off for the hills.  Do we try and stop him?  I say no; but I'd like
> to encourage him to share with us if he finds anything worthwhile,
> such as herds of animals or fresh water.  I think he'll be back when
> he gets lonely, but I don't think we should try to force him to
> belong to society if he doesn't want to... he can return to trade
> skins for other goods, perhaps, if he knows how to hunt.

Why should you worry about stopping me or not?!?  I'm doing what the
rest of your should've already done.  Rather than stand around and
decide on how to impose your thought structures on others, get out and
get something DONE!

Ah, you're mistaken.  I can't get lonely simply because this new place
has the added benefit of allowing all of us to commuincate with each
other with out being physically present at the same location in space
OR time!

I fully intend on letting others know what I find... there will be
times that I need knowledge that others have that I don't.  Aha!  Why
should we create a monetary system based on the idea of a physical
substance?  Knowlege is what is needed now, I intend on gaining it and
using it as my "wealth".  I'm not sure how to hunt, but I think I have
the basics of it down... and with a little "applied intellegence" I'm
sure I'll become pretty good at it and can teach someone else how to
do so.

"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day.  Teach him how to
fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
                - Eskimo Proverb

Pat


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 15:58:10 CDT
From: Mark S
Subject:      How many of us are there?

Most of our discussion seems to suggest that a relatively small group has
landed here on Hitlandia.  This may be a real problem.  While it might easily
ease political stresses to be few in numbers, we must be concerned with having
the critical mass of people necessary for making a population go.  These
potentail problems are both immediate (having people with the skill necessary
for maintaining some marginal level of civilization) and long term (having
sufficient diversity in the gene pool).  Without a large population, inbreeding
could within a few generations produce of population riddled with genetic
diseases (e.g., nearsightedness, cystic fibrosis if were caucasion, sickle cell
anemia if african), loss of important inherited traits by chance and so on.

Mark S


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 20:17:40 CDT
From: Mark C
Subject:      re:      Re: Hitland (Hittalia; Hitville; Hitemhiland)

it was the remark that it's very hard to destroy a human body
without weapons or training...........

you might rethink this.

Mark C


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 16:17:00 PST
From: Bill
Subject:      Re: Hitland (Hittalia; Hitville; Hitemhiland)

Judging from the severity of the crash, it might be a good idea to
migrate even further from SHIP, but for now, just keep an eye out for
the spare parts of it scattered around the countryside.

Due to the fact that we have no idea which plants and animals are safe,
noone should wander alone.  Although you can ask anyone anywhere for help,
you're going to want someone nearby.  While out there, we can try to share
Bob's knowledge of plant biology to judge what's available.

(Note from Earth:  anybody willing to make a judgement call on this new
 communications ability?  I didn't take it to be within the scope of this
 story.  If legal, it would help to have this defined - are we now Betazoid,
 or do simply have built-in cellular telephones?)

Our issues of government will be resolved in due course; right now, we
need work.  I suggest we start forming groups.  Our lack of skills is
no longer relevant; just pick an interest and find an appropriate group.
Here's some groups to start with:
  -animal collection (vegetarianism and edibility are also somewhat
    irrelevant - the furs and bones will become immensly useful.
    If you can catch it, bring it back.)
  -plant collection
  -'home base' organization (find a clearing, build a fire, collect
    smaller sticks and rocks for the next item)
  -cartography - this is everyone's job.  Keep an eye on where you go,
    not only so you can get back, but so we can all get a feel for
    where we are, and perhaps keep a rough map with stick and stones.

Any other suggestions?  Let's hear `em, we gots work to do!

Bill


---
Date:         Fri, 16 Apr 1993 18:54:58 -0500
From: George
Subject:      Hitalia

I've had a heck of a time finding you guys but I'm glad you decided to
move away from what used to be SHIP. I've ckecked out the immediate area
and although I'm no zoologist or botanist I do know a skunk when I see
one...why are you backing away?  Anyway this what we have to work with:

TREES-mostly pine, with some hickory, oak, and gum
SHRUBS-Azalea, sumac, and yaupon
ANIMALS-Deer, racoon, beaver, rabbit, squirral, bear, quail, doves, ducks,
catfish, trout, and perch

The trees offer some frotection for now and, if we can figure out how to
cut them, we can do some serious building.
The nuts and berries will keep us regular. I also know that leaves of the
sumac can be used in tanning and dying but stay away from the sumac with
the little gray berries--that's how I got this rash. The yaupon leaves can
make a decent tea.
The animals will provide our main food source (any vegetarians among us?)
and the pelts have may uses.
I think we ought to take note of the positions of the sun(s), moon(s), and
stars. The information may be very handy in the future for planting
seasons. Later we can erect some monoliths to mark the seasonal
changes--they'll also drive our posterity crazy trying to figure out their
"mysterious" meaning.

So, what have you been doing?

George


---
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1993 16:23:22 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Hitalia (is that right?)

Do we have any medical supplies?

Kurt


---
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1993 15:19:03 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Gov't.

And another thought, wouldn't it be wise to do some scouting of the
surrounding area to check for various and sundry things like other life,
whether it be hunting game, other settlements or civilizations, and other
indigenous life that might, say, try to eat you when your not looking?  Just
a thought.

Kurt


---
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1993 15:29:24 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Re: Gov't.

Unless anyone has any objections, after we establish where our homebase will
be, I will lead a group (about three or four) on a hunting/finding mission.
I have some experience with this type of thing.  Three or four other people may
want to lead similar groups.
        Did anyone bring a compass (and if so, do they work?), and did we
bring anything to hunt with or do we have to use make-shift traps and
pointed sticks?  Although I guess we won't have to use traps or pointed
sticks on fruits and berries, generally they don't put up much of a fight.
One time though, I had this particularly vicious banana backed into a corner
and . . . oh well, that's another story.

Kurt


---
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1993 20:12:03 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

    Outside of story: Does anyone know if role playing simulations
like this are being used in schools?  I can see this as a powerful
tool for keeping bored vidiot kids involved.
    G.


---
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1993 20:10:53 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

    Fire built -- three matches used.  Also found a stream, which
I've dubbed "HIT Creek."  It's roughly a mile east of SHIP.  Follow
it upstream a little ways and you'll start to see my smoke.
    G.


---
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1993 16:45:42 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Food and water

BTW, I found a nice fresh water stream about half of a mile north.  When
looking for other water sources, follow down-hill paths and follow animal
tracks whenever possible; eventually you'll reach water.  As for discovering
what is poisonous and what isn't, watch what the animals eat.

Kurt, the hunter


---
Date:         Sat, 17 Apr 1993 16:42:03 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Hitalia

I know that we have lots of things to do (shelter, food, etc.) but after I
return from the hunting trip (successful, I might add--lots of small game,
bunches of nuts, berries, etc.  BTW--for hunting I used a sling, crude, but
effective.  Now after going to all the trouble to make a sling and use it,
if somebody tells me they brought a compound bow or a gun, I'm REALLY gonna
be ticked), I am going to sit down.  I don't know about anyone else, but
after crash-landing, arguing about our form of government, and now after a
short hunting trip, I could use a nice cold beer.  Does anyone have any
beer?  I'll trade you two rabbits and a handful of nuts.

Kurt, the hunter.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 11:59:13 -0700
From: Michael C
Subject:      Re: How many of us are there?

I am also part of the group that has landed.  I was in a coma the last week
since we landed (vacation).  I have skills in exploration and a small amount of
knowledge on climatology.  I suggest we concentrate on establishing a
settlement and look for signs of what the seasons may bring so that we can be
prepared for inclement weather and be ready to plant our crops at the proper
time.  Maybe our landing site is not the best place to settle.  For all we know
a location only a few miles distant may be much better suited to our needs.  We
should oranize a land survey.

Michael C


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 00:19:12 -0500
From: Bob
Subject:      A Rape

We have a problem.  It seems there is a rapist among us.

Last night, as I was assisting another colonist with some shelter,
someone attacked, assaulted, and raped my wife, Marian.  I formally
charge Lane with attempted murder and rape.  Just before I left
to assist Mark C with his shelter, I noticed Lane hanging
around my encampment, learing at Marian.  All during the trip in the
SHIP he had been trying to engage her in conversation, but she
ignored him and told him to take a hike.

Marian told me she never saw her attacker.  She said she had just
gone into the tent when someone came up behind her and hit her over
the head.  When she awoke she was blindfolded, bound, and was being
raped.  There was sexual intercourse.  When he was finished, the
rapist used a knife to free her hands and, in the process, cut both
her arms near the wrist.

This group had better act!  If you all can't stop this kind of thing,
then I will take matters into my own hands.

And don't expect me to help anyone else with anything else until I am
convinced that justice has been served.

Bob


---
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1993 21:08:50 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      BILL'S_PROPOSAL

Bill outlined the following immediate tasks as the basis of forming
workgroups.  Perhaps individuals can volunteer to join these groups.  It would
be particularly useful for those who have not posted often (or ever) to sign on
for a group.  (BTW, in a previous post, I erroneously attributed these
suggestions to George):

>Our issues of government will be resolved in due course; right now, we
need work.  I suggest we start forming groups.  Our lack of skills is
no longer relevant; just pick an interest and find an appropriate group.
Here's some groups to start with:
  -animal collection (vegetarianism and edibility are also somewhat
    irrelevant - the furs and bones will become immensly useful.
    If you can catch it, bring it back.)
  -plant collection
  -'home base' organization (find a clearing, build a fire, collect
    smaller sticks and rocks for the next item)
  -cartography - this is everyone's job.  Keep an eye on where you go,
    not only so you can get back, but so we can all get a feel for
    where we are, and perhaps keep a rough map with stick and stones.

Any other suggestions?  Let's hear `em, we gots work to do!< -from Bill.

One other thing. The possibility of the Ship being radioactively "hot" is a
very serious thing.  Is anybody familiar enough with this subject to give us
all an assessment of the potential hazards?

Njp.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 11:19:54 -0600
From: JHC
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

Robert Heinlein wrote a book about some kids who were stranded on a
planet when a survival test went sour.  The kids did quite well
surviving and set up a nice little government.  Over all it was a very
good book.

    Most of what has been said here lately about life in the woods is
very interesting, and it reforces that anybody could survive in the woods
if necessary.  Has anybody seen the movie "ALIVE"?  It's an extreme example
but proves my point.  Also somebody told me, "It's not the blade that cuts,
it is the mind".  So what I'm trying to say is that most of the people on
this list are really intellegent and actually could do a good job making
a new society.

JhC


---
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1993 22:48:33 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      second group

Again using Bill's "random grouping" concept, will the following members take
responsibility for building shelter?

[Note:  Here was a list of some HIT members' names.            ]
[When compiling this file, the HIT-members agreed to delete the]
[list since we thought making the names public was unnecessary.]

This group may have the following attributes:

Military training
Leadership training
Knowledge of at least five different climates
Racial diversity
Administrative ability
Science and/or engineering training
Direct knowledge of at least three different forms of government
Cultural diversity
Males and females
At least five different languages
At least 30 years of college education (cumulative)
Knowledge of at least two different religions, possibly three
Management ability
Communications expertise

Will the above named individuals accept the responsibility for constructing
shelter?

Njp


---
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1993 22:34:52 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      taskforce

Bill's idea of forming taskforce groups arbitrarily (at first) might be
accomplished like this:

Food gathering group:

[Note:  Here was another list of HIT members' names.           ]
[When compiling this file, the HIT-members agreed to delete the]
[list since we thought making the names public was unnecessary.]

>From the above, we might guess that the group includes the following
attributes:

Knowledge of agriculture
Military training
Experience living in harsh environment
Understanding of different forms of government operating in closs proximity
Ability to manage in a dangerous setting
At least four different languages
Administrative experience
Business experience
Cultural diversity
Men and women
Knowledge of at least two different religions
Direct experience with at least two different forms of government
Experience in at least four different climates
At least 20 years of college education (cumulative)
At least one person over 30 years of age
At least one person with first aid training

Estimating this list of attributes to be 70% accurate, the group is remarkably
diverse and talented.  Can we hear from the above-named individuals?

Njp.


---
Date:         Sun, 18 Apr 1993 20:50:43 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      RECON_THE_BAD_NEWS

The bad news is that I found lots of mud, but no potable water.  And apparently
neither did George.  That doesn't mean there is no good water, just that we
haven't found any yet.

George's recon report is remarkably consistent with my own, nothing overtly
threatening in the way of carnivors, small game, dense vegetation.

George is right. We need to take action, and soon.  We've been here three days,
and there's been no organized effort to insure our survival.  With the two
recon reports, we have a little information, but we need to address the
problems George enumerates.  I've got the ship's manifest.  Perhaps it can be
used to assign work-groups.  George's idea of forming groups by number at first
would work, I think.  Later, we can sort ourselves out according to our
abilities.

I'll send the manifest along in a little while, but I too am concerned about
this telepathy business.  I noticed it too.  Somehow, someway, we are able to
know each other's thinking.  Maybe somebody has an idea what this is all about;
I sure don't know.

There are a few other questions we need to address.  Mark S suggested that
our group may be too small to thrive.  We have over 300 people, as the
manifest will show.  As Mark S says we cannot determine with any precision
the racial and genetic diversity we have, but we do know our people come from
all over the old earth, and that's probably an advantage.  The gender ratio is
also difficult to determine.  We need to "hear" from more of our membership to
discuss not only our pool of talent, but for the long run the genetic
inventory we have to work with.

While I was away slogging through the mud, there was considerable discussion
(that "telepathy" business again - I could "hear" it) about leadership.  The
"Quaker" meeting forum seemed best to me, but that will require the
participation of a large percentage of our group.  We have only "heard" from a
few.

I want to suggest that more people "speak" up.  The larger the number
participating in discussion, the better off we are all going to be.  If you
want this new world to be better than oldearth, you have to participate.  If
you don't, we're likely to end up with government that doesn't reflect the will
of the majority and the strength of diversity.  There should be little concern
about speaking up.  Everyone will have noticed that this new "telepathic"
facility welcomes open thought.  And we can't aford the energy and time flaming
requires.  Everyone is needed.  Everyone.

Njp.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 15:25:35 -0300
From: Robert
Subject:      RE: Hitalia

   Have we all missed the point? What we are talking about is ridiculous.
No one would even be woriied about government until someone started doing
something that almost everyone else disagreed with. Then they would collectively
do something about it. But this would take a while. People are primarily (almost
exclusively) concerned with their own well being and being well off. They need
each others help right now and will pitch in themselves in order to get it. With
such a small community a bartering system works best so no money is needed.
people will trade what they think is worth trading (of course there will be
suckers, and I'll look for them, as will others and only the foolish, or the
nice would believe otherwise. Someone said "Do we want possesions?" OF COURSE
WE DO!!!!! Unless the crash did something to our human souls we do. People are
greedy and ambitious. Eventualy a leader will emerge, probably because he has
access to something everyone else wants, People give him, in barter, more
than he expends to get it and he gains wealth and power. In fact, I'm sure that
there's some plant somewhere on this planet that can take away these blues. I'll
find it and then we'll see.


   But Right now I need to do some fishing. Anybody have a rod or am I gonna
have to do this the hard way?

Robert


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:28:47 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      Re: Rape

What?! Oh man ... (cover eyes with hands) ... this is wrong!

>Just before I left
>to assist Mark C with his shelter, I noticed Lane hanging
>around my encampment, learing at Marian.

I wasn't learning! I was _squinting_ ... my only recourse to clear
vision since leaving my glasses on the SHIP. I was checking out how
y'all were setting stuff up ... lord knows I gotta learn from somewhere,
and since I've been stranded on an _entire planet_ before, y'all
were friendly enough to let me hang and learn something!

I'M INNOCENT!

>All during the trip in the
>SHIP he had been trying to engage her in conversation, but she
>ignored him and told him to take a hike.

*gulp* geez, it was such a long _boring_ ride through the quadrant ...
and with all you _guys_ on board, and friendly _female_ face is
much more fun to talk to ... that doesn't mean I was hitting (pardon
the pun) on her. Then i thought she was mad at me or something, like
I'd done something wrong! And I took that hike, Bob. Don't you remember?
That's when I came by looking for a deck of cards ....

>Marian told me she never saw her attacker.

Oh, right, like I was the only one around. Well, I heard Kurt and Greg
talking just around the bushes ... and, yeah, and after you left,
Marion started puttering around not doing anything, so I left to check
out the watering hole I heard Kurt announce to the team! I wasn't even
_around_ after you left!

>This group had better act! If you all can't stop this kind of thingm
>Then I will take matters into my own hands.

Now, Bob, let's be reasonable. Don't do anything you won't regret
later, eh?

>And don't expect me to help anyone else with anything else until I am
>convinced that justice has been served.

This must be Monday.

Lane

PS, If we can't serve justice, how 'bout a helping of that blue stuff
Norm just dragged into camp?


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:42:21 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      MEDICAL_SUPPLIES

Kurt,

We may have some medical supplies.  We haven't found out what everyone grabbed
from the ship after it crashed.  It was get out in a hurry, or fry, as you
recall.

But even if we do have some medical supplies, how do we know they aren't
radioactive?

Njp.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 17:35:43 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      I want a lawyer!

Not only do I want a lawyer, but I want my rights protected as
an individual. No proof has been set forward that I raped anyone,
and I call on Bob to produce _any_ evidence before anyone tries
to shackle me to a tree "just for safekeeping."

If this does come down to a trial (and by-gum, I'm still holding to
the American concept of "innocent until proven guilty") we should
follow SHIP's rules, with the Captain (if there is one) holding
court.

Until then, I will repeat: "I DIDN'T DO IT!"

Lane


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:47:59 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      Re: Gov't.

Kurt,

This strange new (telpathic?) phenomonon seems to be effective, but slow.
Recon has been attempted by a couple of people, but they barely scratched the
surface, so to speak.

In my own recon, for example, I sensed something "watching" me, or since
"watching" doesn't quite describe it, just something odd "surrounding" or
"pacing" me.  I have no idea what it was - maybe just nerves - but there was
something ...

Norm


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:54:36 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      SIMULATORY

Greg,

What simulation?  You think I got these mosquito bites from simulated bugs?
For all we know as yet, there may be schoolage kids here as part of the
original crew.

Norm


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:59:44 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      FIRE_AND_WATER

Super, Greg.  Fire, water.  Is the water pure?  Hell, forget "pure"; is it
drinkable?

Are we still huddled around Ship?  Do we have to begin getting suntans from the
wreckage before we realize the wreckage is hot?

Norm


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 19:04:34 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      PAPA

Sorry, Papa, but unless you know how to build a new ship, you're stranded here
with the rest of us.  Now that should really make you blue.

Norm


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:09:00 CST
From: Bret S
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

        I have just returned from a couple of days surveying
the woods, and hitting animals over the head with rocks.  I've
got quite a lot of food here, but for some reason, I don't want
to just GIVE it away to those who are still skulking in the trees,
scoffing our attempts, saying "We're all going to die anyway, so
what's the point?"  I've got enough food here to feed some of us
who are busy hunting, or surveying, or building shelter.  We're
the ones who need it, after all.
        Should we feel obligated to feed and clothe and shelter
those who will not contribute to the effort?  I'd feel awfully bad
if they all simply starved to death...
        Is there a psychologist, or a counselor/therapist type
around who can talk to these people, and get them to come around?

Bret S


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 19:31:02 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      Re: I want a lawyer!

Sorry, old sport, but this ain't America.  This is a whole new game.  Look,
whether you did it or not, how about making an example of yourself, for the
good of the community.  Just say you did it, we'll hang you, and that will
deter any potential rapists.  Show a little community spirit, will you?

Njp.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 18:38:14 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: HITalia

Incidentally, do we have a historian in the group? Is anyone recording
the soon-to-be legends of the beginnings of the Hittites?
(In other words, has anyone saved all these messages? It would be a fascinating
study, as well as a potential book if this goes on long enough.)

Andy


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 20:15:10 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      BROTHER'S_KEEPER?

Here's a really important question posed by Bob:

"Should we feel obligated to feed and clothe and shelter
those who will not contribute to the effort?  I'd feel awfully bad
if they all simply starved to death..."

Considering what SW said about genetic sustainability, and our small numbers, I
think we have to argue for the Brother's Keeper ethic, if on no other grounds
than long-term practicality.  Bob's question has been phrased by others as
well.

What do we say?  Are we one for all and all for one, or something else?

Njp.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 20:20:55 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      CORRECTION

It was Brett S, not Bob, who asked the question about social responsibiility:

" I've got enough food here to feed some of us
who are busy hunting, or surveying, or building shelter.  We're
the ones who need it, after all.
        Should we feel obligated to feed and clothe and shelter
those who will not contribute to the effort?  I'd feel awfully bad
if they all simply starved to death..."

Sorry, Brett S, must be that blue stuff I ate is making me (more) stupid.

Norm


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:07:18 -0700
From: Mike A
Subject:      Hitalia

On Sun, 18 Apr 1993, NORM wrote:

> The bad news is that I found lots of mud, but no potable water.  And
 apparently
> neither did George.  That doesn't mean there is no good water, just that we
> haven't found any yet.

That's OK, someone found HIT Creek, so we have water.

> George's recon report is remarkably consistent with my own, nothing overtly
> threatening in the way of carnivors, small game, dense vegetation.

No carnivores?  Something's wrong with the food chain.  There has to be a
top level to it.  What it is? Hey you, the person who went fishing ... did
you catch anything?  A "Samlon" (That's S-A-M-L-O-N)?  And it's lifecycle
is somewhat akin to an ugly african frog?  We've got troubles.  [Does
anybody know what I'm talking about?  Reply privately with reference if
you do.]

> George is right. We need to take action, and soon.  We've been here three
 days,
> and there's been no organized effort to insure our survival.  With the two

agreed.  Screw organizing some sort of gov't.  In a group our size (over
300), a natural lead will emerge.  We also have (barely) enough genetic
diversity to survive.  Personally, I'm going to go up toward that mountain
and find a good ridge/plateu with a defensible position.  Anybody coming
along?  Maybe we'll become sort of a tribal culture, with small tribes ...

> I'll send the manifest along in a little while, but I too am concerned about
> this telepathy business.  I noticed it too.  Somehow, someway, we are able to
> know each other's thinking.  Maybe somebody has an idea what this is all
 about;
> I sure don't know.

I wouldn't worry too much about how it came about.  I prefer just to be
thankful that we can communicate so easily with each other.  Fortunately
we don't know exactly what we are thinking, only when we conciously direct
our thoughts toward each other can we communicate.  Too bad there's only
this one channel.  Wait!  I can communicate with exactly the person I have
in mind!  So two ways of communication--1)  with entire group, or 2) with
individual.

> There are a few other questions we need to address.  Mark S suggested that
> our group may be too small to thrive.  We have over 300 people, as the
> manifest will show.  As Mark S says we cannot determine with any precision
> the racial and genetic diversity we have, but we do know our people come
> from all over the old

At 300, we have *barely* enough.  If I remember correctly, the minimum is 210.

> earth, and that's probably an advantage.  The gender ratio is also difficult
 to
> determine.  We need to "hear" from more of our membership to discuss not only

*This* may be the biggest problem.  I have a sneaky suspicion that there
are overwhelmingly more men than women.  I remember that there was a
culture on earth (Tibetan, if I'm right), where several men could/would
share a wife.  I don't know how this would work here.

This would never be accepted back on Earth, but I suggest that we protect
our women from all possible dangers.  Don't let them die!  If only our
group was larger!  Basically, up to a point, men are going to be
expendable ... they can become explorers, trappers, etc.

I'll think at you people later.  I'm heading up the mountain.  Who's
coming along?

-Mike A


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:35:38 -0700
From: Mike A
Subject:      Mike's Mountain Group

Those of you out on recon...  have any of you followed HIT Creek
downstream?  Before we crashed, did anyone notice how much of Hitalia is
covered with water?  78%, like Earth?  (???)  How far is it to a large
body of water.  Maybe someone could find out.  Like I told Norm, I'm
willing to trade rabbit-sized furs for survival information (ie, which
berries, roots, bugs, etc. are edible).  I managed to make a useable spear
from a sapling and have killed one of the local lifeforms.  Astonishingly,
the meat was edible.

After we crashed, I took off into the local hills to be alone for a while.
Now I'm sitting on the hill above the main camp (you people are really
slow at getting any shelter up!), waiting for people to join me.  I need
people skilled/endowed in the following areas:
        firemakeing
          (meat is good, but we'd get real sick of it raw all the time)
        strength
          (I have a feeling that we'll be building a shelter with stones)
        hunting
        agriculture (well, just having a green thumb will work !)
        food preservation
        etc.

And if you think you have a skill this tribe (MMG) will need, let me know,
I'll make decisions on a case-to-case basis.  Females must have a
"marketeable" skill in addition to being willing to bear offspring (sorry,
but this is life and death for the entire group, not just MMG).  One or
two exceptions to the last rule will be made.

As far as MMG's organization, I'm pretty much in charge, but I *always*
want to hear opposing points of view, alternative options, and
suggestions.  Most of the time, if someone comes up with a better idea
than me, that's what we'll do (but I *do* have some definite ideas as to
where we'll be going and what we'll use for shelter).  I bear ultimate
responsibility for MMG.

I will also attempt to update the main "tribe" twice daily during our trek
up the mountain, once daily when we find a good place.

Please contact me if you wish to join MMG.

Think at you later.

-Mike A


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 16:54:55 -0700
From: Mike A
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

["Private" to Kurt.  Ignore my email to you.  Just look at how much I've
posted today!  Sorry I was such a pain in the ass.]

Bret S!  Great to hear from you!  Mike A here (leader of MMG).
See that sapling next to the tree you're leaning on?  Break it off,
sharpen the point (grind on a rock), use it as a spear.  Works a *lot*
better than hitting animals over the head with rocks!  I assume you found
the same rabbit-sized critter that I did.  Pretty good, huh?  Did you come
across any larger animals.  I'm really worried about the fact that there
doesn't seem to be anything filling in the top niche in the food chain.
Did you find any bigger streams than HIT Creek?  What about lakes, rivers,
ocean???

Has anyone gone uphill?  Or have most of the recons taken place on this
more-or-less flat area we crashed on?

On Mon, 19 Apr 1993 Bret S wrote:
> got quite a lot of food here, but for some reason, I don't want
> to just GIVE it away to those who are still skulking in the trees,
> scoffing our attempts, saying "We're all going to die anyway, so
> what's the point?"  I've got enough food here to feed some of us

I think that at this point, we need all the people we can get (remember,
our group is barely big enough for genetic survival), so we should
probably (at least for now) feed them.   Those who want to die can do so.
I'd feel awfully bad, too, if they died of starvation.

Mike A


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 19:02:17 -0700
From: Michael C
Subject:      Re: Food and water

I am sending this message via our _Mystery Link_:
Here is a copy of my survey notes as I follow the stream nearest our SHIP.

Mile 2
The stream heads southwest through the conifer forest.  These trees remind me
of ponderosa pine.

Mile 10
The stream drops sharply into a narrow gorge.  From my vantage point here at
the top of the gorge I can see that the SHIP must be on a high plateau.  Most
of the land beyond the gorge is at a lower elevation.

Mile 15
The stream heads almost due south here.  The gorge has widened but the land is
still quite rugged.  Very beautiful red  and purple rock spires.  There are no
longer pine trees here.  I would estimate I have dropped 2000 ft. in altitude.

The stream has large clear pools and I can see several types of fish.  Some
look quite like trout and one looks like a catfish with a turtle shell around
the middle.

Mile 27
The stream merges with a river that is flowing east and a little south.  From
what I can see the river turns more sharply southward ahead.  On the other side

of the river the valley rises up to a set of rounded mountains.  I estimate my
altitude at 4000 ft. below the SHIPs level.  It is about 15 degrees warmer here
than at the SHIP.  The river valley is about 8 miles wide and level.  there are
stands of some type of hardwood tree with broad leaves.  The river is nearly at
the top of it's banks.  I would estimate that this is the wet season and a
warming season (spring).  Many of the plants are flowering.  I estimate that
the stream I followed down from the SHIP may be completely dry during parts of
the dry season or summer.  The amount of wetland vegetation along the big river

leads me to think that this river may decrease in size but contain water
year-round.  I will spend the night here and continue tomorrow.


Mile 34
BIG NEWS!!  Signs of Intelligent Life!!
I was is a side canyon north of the big river and east of the little stream
when I found cliff dwellings.  The are built about 150 feet up the cliffs over
a medium size creek.  I didn't find any _people_ around.  The seem to be
abandoned.  I haven't found a way up the cliffs to look inside.  It seems that
they were built by someone a little smaller than an average man.  They were
obviously not afraid of heights.  The narrow walk ways jut right over the
cliff.
I don't see any traces of ladders.  But I do see some well worn climbing
routes that are nearly vertical. There are no traces of habitation in the
valley floor.  No tracks bigger than a beavers.  I will camp nearby and wait
for any reports across our -network-.  Looks like this valley would be great
for farming, but would we be the only ones here?

Michael C


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 21:45:04 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: Watching

-> In my own recon, for example, I sensed something "watching" me, or since
-> "watching" doesn't quite describe it, just something odd "surrounding" or
-> "pacing" me.  I have no idea what it was - maybe just nerves - but there was
-> something ...

Having just gotten back from an escape pod that crashed far away, I wish to
verify the phenomenon mentioned above. Several times during my walk back, I
sensed, in the same way that I can sense each of you nearby, an alien
presence. I couldn't tell if it was intelligent and curious, or just hungry
and not sure if I qualified as food, but there was definitely something.
Twice as I turned around, I saw the leaves rustle as if something had just
run away.

Also, some of us might wish to relocate, as I saw a stand of tall, broad
trees not far from here at the base of a waterfall. The trees would provide
raw materials, as well as height, which would keep us safer from larger
predators, although so far I have not seen evidence of them. Also, the rocks
around the waterfall are made of flint, which would allow us to make primitive
tools until such time as we figured out how to make good tools, and where to
get materials. Do we have any technically minded sorts that would know how
to forge iron, or even bronze, or better yet steel? Once we get basic agri
going, it would be really nice to have proper tools for farming.

Along those lines, the land near the river is VERY rich, which suggests two
things. 1> It would be great for farming.
        2> It floods.

Something to think about

Andy


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 23:23:08 -0400
From: Norm
Subject:      HITALOG1_2_1

This is the second week since the forced landing of HitShip on this earthlike
planet (Common usage name "Hitalia").

After several days of discussion of what is to be done, including considerable
debate on the form of government should be established, three Shipsmemembers
conducted recon in the immmediate
area, and reported back to the community the following:

There is potable water in a nearby creek (1/4 mile from crash site), small
game, abundant vegetation, and materials for building
shelter.

The lowlands are wet, densely overgrown, thickly forested.  There is a
mountainous region within a day's walk.  Large bodies of water have not been
located.

Several suggestions have been made for the ordering of society, but the most
notable development is a breakaway action called Mike's Mountain Group (MMG).

While there has been no definite action yet to organize the population (besides
the notable exception of MMG), there has been little discord.  There was one
alleged rape, which imatter, but no seri
serious suggestions have been made as to how to deal with this.  Here is a
potentially explosive situation, which we will observe carefully
during the next week. situation, deserving of more attention than it has


An ability to communicate in some form of directed telepathy has been observed
but no full explanation has been proas yet.s yet.

There is much to be done, and the participation of all residents is encouraged.

Technical note: the power source on this recorder is reading in the red, and I
cannot determine how much longer it will hold out.  This report will
therefore be short.

Norm, Archiem.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 22:53:25 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      Rape Investigation

          Okay, well and fine. I'm going to take some matters in hand
          concerning this rape thing. This is a tragedy and has to be dealt
          with. We can't have someone assuming there is no law and that
          they can act as they will without suffering consequences. Mike,
          you've taken fine control of the mountaineering group, and I wish
          you the best in staking out the immediate territory.

          Bob. I'll assume you're nearby. It is my intention at this
          critical juncture to enroll several of the lurkers as
          guards/police. Without a doubt, the women must be protected.
          Please understand that I am _not_ speaking down to the women of
          HIT, nor to their equality, but there are men among us who will -
          - nay, _have_ -- already taken obscene and dire actions against
          Bob's wife, Marion. I point to five of the lurkers -- the large,
          huskier ones -- and tell them to report to Bob's and Marion's
          encampment, where Marion (I assume) is being tended to. They are
          to report to the person taking medical care of Marion (who could
          that be?) and to let no one other than the medical team ...
          ensure they women, will ya, 'cause whoever raped Marion was a
          man.

          Four more men should be assigned to Bob's side in case this is a
          personal vindetta against Bob's family. Four more should be
          assigned to watch me 'cause, dammit, I'm innnocent and I want
          people around me to attest for my actions from now till this is
          over. Without names to assign to the four men guarding me, I'll
          refer to each of them as One, Two, Three, and Four until I get
          some personal volunteers. I'm going to need help undertaking this
          investigation. (At least give me your names ... four of you who
          usually don't participate, this is your calling!)

          Bob, I'm truly ashamed of men in general for the rape of Marion.
          I'd tell her the same in person, but that might not be a good
          idea at this time. And I have to ask, does she remember anything
          else? Were there other indicators that led you to think that _I_
          raped her? Hair color? Size? Anything?

          And you might think that I'm not the person to do the
          investigating. Well, someone has to, and right now, I'm angry
          enough to make something happen. If you have a better idea, you
          let me know. I'd prefer it if you were working with me rather
          than against me, but I'll understand if you don't.

          Norm, you said you've got the ship's manifest. Does it list the
          captain's name? Is he around here? If so, can he ... will he
          serve as an impartial judge? If not, I nominate Chris to stand as
          an observer, much as Heinlien spoke of First Witnesses. Chris?

          In addition, if Chris will stand as a Witness I give him for
          safekeeping the single possession (save my clothes and glasses) I
          brought with me: a sword, a saber (not a fencing saber, but the
          slightly heavier type). I was on my way to a nearby to a nearby
          planet cluster to participate in a fencing tournament. Yes, I
          heard Bob say Marion's bonds were cut by a knife ... that's why I
          didn't say anything about it at first. I didn't need a bunch of
          hollering and screaming about a weapon. It's been strapped to my
          back, if y'all can't see it (I still can't _quite_ see figures in
          detail, assume the rest of you can't, either). I'm so used to the
          sword and the strap, I forget at times that it's there.

          But I've giving it up to Chris for safe keeping. I don't want
          anyone accusing me of intimidating them with one of the few
          weapons (we know there is more than one... well, _I_ know).

          Chris, if you won't stand as Witness, or as holder of my sword,
          then I'll keep it in my sheath and hold One, Two, Three and Four
          responsible for keeping it should something happen to me.

          BTW, Norm, as Chief Scrounger, would you consult some of the
          technically literate to see if there is equipment/shielding
          that'll let me get _into_ the remains of the SHIP at least long
          enough to find either my glasses or my contacts. I don't want to
          be nearsighted if or when there's a physical conflict, and it's
          hard to find clues when I can't see them. Perhaps the eyes of
          One, Two, Three, and/or Four will have to stand in for me.

          Any questions?

          Lane

          PS, it seems that in this "telepathic" mode, I'm connected to a
          virtual library of books. I may not know much about courts or law
          or surviving in the jungle by experience, but it seems rather
          easy for me to "think of" a particular book and _ping_ there it
          is, open for my mental perusal. This could be a lifesaver.


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 22:58:43 -0500
From: Bill
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

  Yes, nice river valley.
  But why is it way down there?
  Ah, I understand now, these aren't my legs I'm using.
  I've got mine back now, but I'm in the river.
  Nice canoe you've got, but what kind of wood is that oar I'm using?
  Please don't do that to me, that's not what oars are for.  You can have
my daughter JUST PLEASE

Ooof!

Damn, I hate sleeping in this place.

  After calming myself down, I notice very little progress on our community
fire, and after tracking down the woodsmen, I begin to see why.  This
forest is unusually well maintained.  The trees themselves haven't been
pruned or anything, but there is verry little 'mess' on the forest floor,
very little dry wood for a fire.

  We pull together what we can find, and start a few flames.  Hopefully the
older stuff will be able to dry out the greener twigs fast enough to keep
the fire going, but I don't think this forest will support a permanent
camp.  I recommend we send a few more people down to those cliff caves to
see if there's a chance the previous occupants will return, and to find
a way into them.

To Mike's Mountain Group:
  I understand the need for small groups, but let's not be making tribes;
too many absolute leaders can only lead to war.  Also with respect to our
newly acquired food supply, I believe we should adopt an interim communism,
but based on (guess what) rights and responsibilities:  you have a right
to the food so long as you accept your responsibilities; reject them, and
you will have to buy your rights.

About Norm's 'presence':
  It doesn't seem that anyone here has noticed anything, but I 'hear' an
awful lot of noise from the throng; it seems they drown out alot of
communication from our remote explorers.  Do you suppose you could be
hearing 'noise' from the planet itself?  My from the hotter bits of SHIP?

Are we having fun yet? <grunt> <grunt>

Bill


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 23:03:02 -0500
From: Bill
Subject:      Re: HITalia

> From:         Andy
> Incidentally, do we have a historian in the group? Is anyone recording
> the soon-to-be legends of the beginnings of the Hittites?
> (In other words, has anyone saved all these messages? It would be a fascinatin
 g
> study, as well as a potential book if this goes on long enough.)

Norm is our self-appointed Keeper, but I've been filing away all the
mail we've generated on this place.  (so don't say anything incriminating!)

Bill


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 00:36:25 -0400
From: Bret K
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

        Okay.. I have been lurking like so many of the other 300 for quite
a while now.. I am just getting over the shock of all this.. i mean this was
supposed to be just a hop for some of us, not a permanent thing..

        I want to help. I have knowledge of rapelling, hunting, reconoiter,
hiking, and with the proper tools i can be a bowyer.. not that we have the
proper plants here to make string perhaps, but these 'spear trees's young
could eventualy be arrows.. This is all assuming that the sun stays out..
I also know about tanning, so we will have to wrap rock wedges with hide
against stout branches to make some axes.. we have to bring down a tree
about 2' around and burn out some of the insides so we can fill it with water.
the acidity will cure hides..

        So what'll it be?

        Bret K


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 23:51:17 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: BROTHER'S_KEEPER?

NORM
-> think we have to argue for the Brother's Keeper ethic, if on no other grounds
-> than long-term practicality.  Bob's question has been phrased by others as
-> well.
-> What do we say?  Are we one for all and all for one, or something else?

Good point Norm, I didn't think of that. Okay, this generation we keep as
breeding stock, but any future lazies...

Andy


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 23:49:30 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: Hitalia: food

Bret S writes

->         Should we feel obligated to feed and clothe and shelter
-> those who will not contribute to the effort?  I'd feel awfully bad
-> if they all simply starved to death...
No. Let them die. We don't need to develop a dependent underclass here too.
In fact, if anyone doesn't contribute, not because of inability, but because
of lack of effort, let them die.
If people are unable to contribute, we should decide on an individual basis.

->         Is there a psychologist, or a counselor/therapist type
-> around who can talk to these people, and get them to come around?
Starvation will do that to you much faster.


Andy


---
Date:         Mon, 19 Apr 1993 22:54:58 -0600
From: Goose
Subject:      MMG

Mike,

I volunteer to help with the mountian exploration.  I have a little
experience in climbing, but I am a better hunter.  I have hunted several
times on Earth.  Most of them have been for birds:Pheasant,Duck&Goose.
So I haven't much experience tracking small little rabbit-like animals.
what do you say? am I in?


Oh yeah, What about ropes?, and any other climbing gear that may be needed?
do you have those already?

Goose


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 00:09:43 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: Hitalia - PREDATOR

Just North of here, I found large tracks. The footprints indicate large
claws, the gait is that of a six footed animal, and the 2 foot long feet
were sunk several inches into the ground, indicating a VERY heavy animal.

Following the tracks, I found a carcass of a deer-like herbivore, which
was missing most of its body. There were wolf sized animals with
very SHARP teeth shredding what was left of the animal. As I approached, they
turned as one and surrounded me. Had there not been a tree nearby, I may
not have lived to think this to you. The animals appear VERY intelligent,
and are capable of very thorough organization. Before I killed several of
them with my bow, they were building steps up the side of the tree.
        I suggest we leave the valley for now, and move to the forest which
I mentioned before, or at least sleep in the trees.  If rapacious beasts came
upon our settlement during our sleep, with the current lack of guards or
weapons, I would be very pessimistic as to our survival. Incidentally,
the Voracious Wolves' fur is very soft and warm, and they taste delicious,
especially the heart.

Andy


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 00:23:01 -0500
From: Bob
Subject:      Second Day without justice

I have spent the last 24 hours tending my wife.  She has been so
severely damaged and violated.  The physical scars around her
wrists will be healed in time, but I don't know if the emotional
scars can be so easily removed.

One day has come and gone - and nothing has been done to bring Lane
to justice.  Are you all going to sit there like so many blocks
of wood and let the self-effacing madman continue to rape those we
hold most dear, both emotionally and biologically?

One day has come and gone.  I withhold my knowledge and skills from
the group in order that I can protect and help heal my wife.  Several
of the women have come by our encampment with food and firewood and
encouragement.  They whisper together in the tent, and walk away with
a mask of fear on their faces.

WHO IS TO BE NEXT, LANE?

One day has come and gone.  You only have four more days left.

Hell hath no fury like an angry biologist!

Bob


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:26:39 EST
From: Geraldo
Subject:      HITalia: God Intervention

THUNDER
THUNDER
FIRE ON SKY
THUNDER

Strong voice coming from sky


Oh! Little and weak mortals, you came to My world!

I am EDITOR, the God of HITalia and I wellcome you to my lands.

But you MUST obey the Mandaments to survive and escape the
Wrath of God:

1. To use HITALIA in front of all your postings,
    since some lesser humans are not interested at all on this talk

2. To talk about technology you need to live in this world, and
    how to develop it, since HIT is about Tech.

3. Be friendly.

That's the voice of EDITOR, your God when in HITalia.

                Enjoy Yourself

Geraldo


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:40:01 -0600
From: Barbara
Subject:      Re: BILL'S_PROPOSAL

Same old disregard for all other living life forms - no apparent effort to
understand ecosystems - just gather all the animals, decimate them and the
vegatation they live on - what is really new here?

On Sun, 18 Apr 1993, NORM wrote:

> Bill outlined the following immediate tasks as the basis of forming
> workgroups.  Perhaps individuals can volunteer to join these groups.  It would
> be particularly useful for those who have not posted often (or ever) to sign o
 n
> for a group.  (BTW, in a previous post, I erroneously attributed these
> suggestions to George):
>
> >Our issues of government will be resolved in due course; right now, we
> need work.  I suggest we start forming groups.  Our lack of skills is
> no longer relevant; just pick an interest and find an appropriate group.
> Here's some groups to start with:
>   -animal collection (vegetarianism and edibility are also somewhat
>     irrelevant - the furs and bones will become immensly useful.
>     If you can catch it, bring it back.)
>   -plant collection
>   -'home base' organization (find a clearing, build a fire, collect
>     smaller sticks and rocks for the next item)
>   -cartography - this is everyone's job.  Keep an eye on where you go,
>     not only so you can get back, but so we can all get a feel for
>     where we are, and perhaps keep a rough map with stick and stones.
>
> Any other suggestions?  Let's hear `em, we gots work to do!< -from Bill.
>
> One other thing. The possibility of the Ship being radioactively "hot" is a
> very serious thing.  Is anybody familiar enough with this subject to give us
> all an assessment of the potential hazards?
>
> Njp.

Barbara


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 09:50:51 CDT
From: Pat
Subject:      Re: A Rape

Upon returning to camp this is what I find.

> We have a problem.  It seems there is a rapist among us.
>
> I formally charge Lane with attempted murder and rape.
>
> Marian told me she never saw her attacker.
>
> This group had better act!  If you all can't stop this kind of thing,
> then I will take matters into my own hands.
>
> And don't expect me to help anyone else with anything else until I am
> convinced that justice has been served.

How is your relationship between you and your wife going?  You know,
we have this wonderful situation to start anew all over again.
Inevitably someone might take that chance to extremes... is this our
first example of said situation.

We have no society or government to make our laws and do our thinking
for us.  There may be individuals within the group who are incapable
of dealing with this phenomenal newfound freedom.  The freedom to do
as you wish without any chance consequences. I would like to point out
at this point that many times the person with the loudest voice is not
always right!

This person has convinced himself that it was Lane that has
committed this crime, he will continue to yell at the top of his
lungs, and do everything in his power to make us believe that Lane is
guilty.

Folks I put to you that this is an explosive situation and that you
should talk to all involved parties.  And do so with an open mind!  We
have here a chance to create the fundamentals of a truly amazing
judicial process.  Due to limited numbers we can get the facts for
ourselves... think for ourselves... and make the conclusions for
ourselves.  We are our own peers, there is no need of jury, and no
need of haste.  (I almost did it, I'm not going to quote that we need
as little wast as possible to survive here!)

The accusation has been made.  Fellow travelers, I submit that you go
get the facts on your own and make your own informed decision as to
the innocence or guilt of Lane.  After having determined said
dispositon, then, if necessary, we should come up with punishments.

Pat


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:13:00 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: RECON_THE_BAD_NEWS

        Well, the telepathy doesn't seem to be working well with me.  I can
only seem to `hear' if I concentrate on the task.  I have skills in organic
gardening (learned back on earth and limited to sticking seeds in the ground
and getting them to grow.  I can't identify seeds too well.) and oral/written
entertainment (I'm an amutar professional writer).  I have also noticed that
this place seems to respond somewhat to my thoughts.  As I have just recently
rejoined the group, I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this phon.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:33:50 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Native life

        Has anyone who's been doing some roaming/traveling seen any short,
furry bipeds?  I just now remembered to bring this up.  Near the place which
I found myself after SHIP crash (about 300 km sunrise from here) (call that
east) I found what amounts to a small colony/tribe/whatever of short bipedal
felines.  They were about 1 m tall with dark fur, and had a body structure that
reminded me of Kzinti, although they didn't have any bald spots.  I think this
they might be native to this planet, but I'm not sure.  They just seem to fit
in.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:45:53 -0300
From: Robert
Subject:      RE: Rape Investigation

   Well Lane, You seem to be taking up a lot of responsibility there huh?

Well maybe it's more athority than responsibility. Just gonna tell five of us

slackers what to do and when to do it? Well if that's your attitude I think we

are gonna have a serious problem. In fact maybe you should be nipped in the

bud before you can become a serious problem (YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN?)!!!!!!!!!!!?




Robert


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 08:49:46 -0700
From: Mike A
Subject:      Hitalia

On Mon, 19 Apr 1993, Andy wrote:

> Having just gotten back from an escape pod that crashed far away, I wish to

Hey!  Wouldn't the escape pod have a copy of the Ship's computer
files/records?  Someone (with computer experience) want to go back to the
pod and see what you can salvage as far as information, technology, other
useful stuff?  I mean, even a laser welder would come in handy for lots of
stuff (drilling, hunting, starting fires, cutting down trees, etc).


OK, first report on MMG.  Only one person joined me during the night, so
I'm unsure of what to do.  I still do not want to be part of the main
group/tribe, so perhaps my group will become a exploring/hunting/reporting
specialists.  If we can get any information from that crashed escape pod,
maybe my group could become (what's the word for people who look for metal
ores?).  If you want to go up to the mountains with us, this is your last
call.  I'll need at least two more people.  Otherwise, no MMG, just a
small exploring band.

Based on the floodplain found downstream, my guess is that we should be
able to find at least a bog, where there would hopefully be some peat
(worst type of coal). If anyone sees/finds/runs into any of the harder
coal, do we have any blacksmiths?  It shoudln't be *too* hard to create a
smelter.  Heck, with all the animal furs we have (and the tanning
"expert"), someone should be able to build a bellows, and presto! we have
an industrial base (in addition to hunting/gathering and agriculture (when
that gets started)).  I would be willing to give up my furs if I can get
something metallic (like a knife).

Think at you later.

-Mike A


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:33:09 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: second group

    Sure, I'll work on the shelter if someone else will tend the
fire.  I used to be a boy scout, hopefully some of that sank in.
    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:42:09 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      MMG

    I think the last thing we need to do now is schism into "tribes."
 Like it or not, the dictates of genetic diversity forbid us from
breaking down into seperate constituencies.  If we split into "MMG
Hill People" and "Hit Creek Plains People" several generations are
going to have us back as Cro Mags.
    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:43:47 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: I want a lawyer!

    There's a simple aswer to this.  The victim states that she was
attacked by someone who freed her wrists with a knife.  My knife is
only about an inch and a half long -- not long enough to quickly cut
something that could restrain a grown woman.  Anyone with a weapon of
the requisite length is our criminal.    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:44:33 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

    I've been minding the fire and trying to make rope so we can
build homes.  Can I have some food?

    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:47:04 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: FIRE_AND_WATER

    There were fish swimming in it.  It looked good.  I strained it
through my sweater and I'm not dead yet.  Little diarrhea, but
nothing to complain about.  Those single leaves without the spines
are the softest.
    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:38:15 +22311259
From: Michael K
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

>
> Robert Heinlein wrote a book about some kids who were stranded on a
> planet when a survival test went sour.  The kids did quite well
> surviving and set up a nice little government.  Over all it was a very
> good book.

        Hmmm, What about Lord of the Flies -Mike K
>
>     Most of what has been said here lately about life in the woods is
> very interesting, and it reforces that anybody could survive in the woods
> if necessary.  Has anybody seen the movie "ALIVE"?  It's an extreme example
> but proves my point.  Also somebody told me, "It's not the blade that cuts,
> it is the mind".  So what I'm trying to say is that most of the people on
> this list are really intellegent and actually could do a good job making
> a new society.
>
> JhC


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 13:26:00 CST
From: Bret S
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

Consider yourself fed, Greg.

As a hypothetical question, what do we do if we kill the ravenous six-legged
(Big) beast - from a "food preservation" standpoint?  I gather (no pun) \
that we can find enough fruits, vegetables, and leaves to tide us over,
but I

Bret S


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 13:28:00 CST
From: Bret S
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

....CONTINUED...
I KNOW that the animals are harder to catch.  How are we going to preserve
the meat?  Does anyone have any salt, or any way of getting it?

Bret S


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 13:48:32 -0500
From: Steven
Subject:      The Silence of the Norms (Was Re: BILL'S_PROPOSAL)

> Same old disregard for all other living life forms - no
> apparent effort to understand ecosystems - just gather
> all the animals, decimate them and the vegatation they
> live on - what is really new here?
>

> On Sun, 18 Apr 1993, NORM wrote:
>

> >   -animal collection (vegetarianism and edibility are
> also somewhat irrelevant - the furs and bones will
> become immensly useful.  If you can catch it, bring it
> back.)

>

Okay, I catch Norm and kill him with a swift jab to the
back with my makeshift punji stick.  Here is what I do then:


- I cut his head off to supply me with a badly needed
paperweight.

- I scalp him to create a handy dustmop.
- I make a nice keychain by stringing his teeth through a
knot of vine.

- I make a set of toy tanks and warplanes, as well as a scale
model of the entire SDI program from his bones for
Hitalia's kids to play with (Norm would have wanted it
that way).

- I eat his liver with a handful of fava beans.  I must add
here that the guts of unreconstructed new men are quite
tasty.
- I quickly hang myself so as not to have to deal with Norm's
lawyer.

As a result, without Norm around dictating the
quasi-patriarchal agenda, the direction that Hitalia
was headed (akin to a post-apocalypse Fort Lee, New
Jersey with only the geeks left alive) is drastically
altered.

Steven


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 12:42:21 -0700
From: Phil
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

On Mon, 19 Apr 1993, Mike A wrote:

> No carnivores?  Something's wrong with the food chain.  There has to be a
> top level to it.  What it is? Hey you, the person who went fishing ... did
> you catch anything?  A "Samlon" (That's S-A-M-L-O-N)?  And it's lifecycle
> is somewhat akin to an ugly african frog?  We've got troubles.  [Does
> anybody know what I'm talking about?  Reply privately with reference if
> you do.]

I sure do!  And guess what?  Jerry says he's working on a sequel.  Maybe
we've fallen into it?  Shivers down my spine....

--Phil


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 14:50:54 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: Second Day without justice

    Why didn't your wife call for help?  If her mouth was covered,
why not use the New Speech of the mind?  Personally, I'd like to
investigate her wounds myself to make sure that your allegations are
correct, as well as starting a search for the knife.
    The guy with the saber -- is his vision really so bad?  If so, we
can rule him out as rapist, since he'd be hard put to comitt the
attack when he couldn't be sure he was unobserved, nor be sure that
he could overpower her.
    Unless, of course, he's found some way to locate someone with New
Speech when they aren't actively broadcasting.
    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 15:29:19 CDT
From: Mark S
Subject:      RE: taskforce

It was suggested that I join the food gathering team, but I would prefer to
join or form a medical unit.  I'm too slow and nearsighted to clambering about
thru the bush, but I do have a little medical experience (Navy trained
hospital corpsman and medical technologist, Ph.D. in immunology).  With a
little luck I could begin to identify some of the bacterial flora that we
are cohabiting with on Hitalia, particularly if some of our intrepid hunters
could find me some seaweed.  With a few pieces of pottery (does anyone know
how to make a kiln) I could probably start culturing bacteria, which might
come in real handy when local diseases begin to spread into our population.
As soon as I figure out how to extract agar from seaweed, I'll grow up bacteria
and start looking for antibacterial agents.  I'll need a collection of the
local plants, which will probably provide our most ready source of antibiotics.
Be on the lookout for sick animals eating particular vegetation as the animals
likely know whats best for them.  If there is anyone in our group with more
medical training than me, please speak up.  My first aid training is 15 years
old and its only by a mircale that we haven't had a medical emergency already.
Mark S


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:47:41 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      Re: Rape Investigation

>Well Lane, You seem to be taking up a lot of responsibility there huh?
>Well maybe it's more athority than responsibility.

I don't think so. I've got a angry biologist after my neck, accusing
me of a crime I haven't committed (and being accused without proof)
and so far all anyone else has done is _nothing_. Since I didn't do
the crime, and since it seems that no one else is going to look for
the real criminal, then I might as well try to pull my own tail out
of the fire. Volunteers have been requested for over and over without
much response, so I pointed out ambigous figures which _must_ be there
and told them to watch over the victim, the victim's spouse, and the
currently-accused. If they don't want to do it, fine. What am I gonna,
do, put them in jail? Nah, that's not my bag. My interest is keep y'all
from stringing me up in a fear-inspired riot.

Additionally, "authority" assumes "the right and power to command,
enforce laws, exact obedience, determine, or judge." I don't have
the right to command, I've given over anything that would grant me
power (my sword), and if any one of those men wants to ignore me and
go sit in the woods, they can do just that. I'm not holding y'all to
anything.

>Just gonna tell five of us
>slackers what to do and when to do it?

No. I was hoping you'd speak up and help. Or speak up and not help.
Your choice.

>Well if that's your attitude I think we
>are gonna have a serious problem. In fact maybe you should be nipped in the
>bud before you can become a serious problem

Geez, talk about an attitude problem.

>(YA KNOW WHAT I MEAN?)!!!!!!!!...

Not really, and shouting doesn't help.

>Robert

Lane


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 21:56:40 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: RECON_THE_BAD_NEWS

Turlu writes:

-> entertainment (I'm an amutar professional writer).  I have also noticed that
-> this place seems to respond somewhat to my thoughts.  As I have just recently
-> rejoined the group, I am wondering if anyone else has noticed this phon.
Explain please?

Andy


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 21:54:23 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Hitalia Re: A Rape

I submit that the person in question would have to have a knife of the correct
size. The sword of the accused is much too large to be used in cutting something
of this sort, and no one would throw away a knife here. So have the
investigative team watch everyone until someone uses a knife of the requisite
size. Then arrest that person, and hold him until the victim can identify him
in a blind test (since supposedly the lighting was not good?) with numerous
men around.

Andy


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 22:05:05 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Hitalia: Re: I want a lawyer!

May I suggest trial by combat?

Andy


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 22:12:01 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: HITALIA MEDICAL_SUPPLIES

NORM writes:

 We may have some medical supplies.  We haven't found out what everyone grabbed
 from the ship after it crashed.  It was get out in a hurry, or fry, as you
 recall.

-> But even if we do have some medical supplies, how do we know they aren't
-> radioactive?

Ok, on board the escape pod I can recover a fairly extensive set of emergency
medical supplies. In addition, I know first aid, CPR, life saving, and beginning
EMT. Anyone wishing to learn these skills may come by my treehouse (under
construction) and help me and my girlfriend build for a period of time double
the time I spend instructing you. Rates are negotiable.

I have recovered several rechargeable laser weapons/tools, which can be charged
from the escape pod's power supply, which (until this fails) is recharged by
the solar panels on the roof.

Has anyone found any large cuplike things such as coconuts or similar? I need
them for an alternate power supply, as well as for transporting water from
the stream until I come up with something better.

Andy


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 20:14:00 -0700
From: Michael C
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

Notes on my second day in the southern valley:

I have started on building myself a shelter out of the mud by the river banks.
Using reeds and sticks with the mud I can get it to act about like adobe.  I
think it is the best I can do without tools to shape wood.  I will use reeds to
weave a thatched roof.  I decided I like it better down here than by the ship.
There are plenty of fish running in the river and I have eaten some of the
succulent plants found here with no ill effects.  I'm not worried about what
everyone else wants to do.  I've always been a loner.  We are in touch anyway
and I'd rather stay out of the brewing mess at the crash site with the rape and
all.  If you want to come check this valley out for yourself just follow Hit
Creek and then the north bank of the Big River.  My adobe will be about 100
feet above the highest mark of the river bank.  You can see it from pretty far
away.  You should also see the smoke of my fire.  I used my magnifying glass to
get it started and have kept some coals hot to save me the hassle of
relighting it.  I haven't seen any signs of the furry bipeds or of predatory ani
   mals and that make me feel good too.  Some of the animals do seem awful smart
    though.  I
haven't been able to trap a thing.  I haven't killed any small game either.
They seem to be very alert and have senses even better than earth animals.  If
they need that for survival there must be something at the top of the food
chain that's keeping them on their toes.  I'm going to devise some kind of
alarm system (shaking leaves or something) so I can hear if anything is coming
at night.  I'm also going to make a good door for my adobe.

Michael C


---
Date:         Tue, 20 Apr 1993 22:19:14 -0500
From: Andy
Subject:      Re: Hitalia : String

Bret K writes:

->         I want to help. I have knowledge of rapelling, hunting, reconoiter,
-> hiking, and with the proper tools i can be a bowyer.. not that we have the
-> proper plants here to make string perhaps, but these 'spear trees's young
Au Contraire! There is a vine near here which will do in a pinch. Flexible,
durable, and quite strong. When cut into thin strips and left to dry in the
sun, they make nice strings, tho they break more often.

-> could eventualy be arrows.. This is all assuming that the sun stays out..
-> I also know about tanning, so we will have to wrap rock wedges with hide
-> against stout branches to make some axes.. we have to bring down a tree
> about 2' around and burn out some of the insides so we can fill it with water.
Thanx for the suggestion. You didn't realize you were helping me, but I used
your idea, and have the beginnings of a pipeline from the waterfall to my tree
house. Eventually, I hope to have running water, and a power source, right at
home!

Andy


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 01:23:20 -0400
From: Bret K
Subject:      Re: Hitalia : String

Well Andy, I read in Heinlein's _Farnham's Freehold_ about producing running
water through ducts, etc. and I also remember the tri-d izations of those
old Gilligan's Island shows.. so running water should be a snap.. =)

Anyone have Iodine pills for clearing water? or anything?

        We need to search for tubers and low growing plants that produce
an edible root.. aside from the food, the nodules are very high in nitrogen
which could eventualy lead to gunpowder, which has more than just a destructive
and weapon related use..

        We need also to arrange wastemanagement.. i.e. no one uses the toilet
upstream from our locus, and we need a place for our food wastes and etc. It
will serve many purposes:

        1). Keeping together natural wastes will make a fine compost pile
        for the gardens that we will have to start soon, it being 'Spring'.

        2) Centralization of wastes will attract critters to only one spot
        by its sent. If the hunters which to stake out the compost pile,
        we will undoubtedly bringt the hunt to us, which makes:

        3) Keep all the critters out of camp by keeping wastes out of camp.


        Aside from tanning, I can remember how to make steel. of course this
is useless until we smelt iron ore.. someone should set about attempts at paper
from would pulp with rock presses.. we will run out of batteries eventualy.. we
will need hard copies of everything..

        We may want to look into making trenches around our encampment to
deter would be entrants.. just a thought.. Anyone having luck with rope?
we need to make strong rope and twine.. Bows, leads and engineering feats need
rope and twine..

        Andy and I are working on a water supply idea as well as a few other
things. I think as a group we need to figure an overall planning of
the camp. localities are everything..


        Bret K


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:49:58 -0600
From: JHC
Subject:      Hitalia

Ok, did any of you explorers find any type of salt?  Since we don't have
refrigerators to keep the meat in, salt is the best preservative around.
Also I heard we need salt in our diet to continue to be healthy.  Also
is there any fruit that has vitamin C in it?  If we don't find it everyone
here will be getting scurvy.  Or if we can make some sort of vinager to
mix with water that will prevent it from happening.  Also what is the
vitamin situation?  We can use those for a while to help keep us healthy.
Did anybody find any equipment to analyze the soil?  If it is not toxic
to us then we can start growing crops from earth like vegies and fruit.

    Just some suggestions
    JHC


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:22:57 -0600
From: JHC
Subject:      Re: RECON_THE_BAD_NEWS

We can convert the mud to water by distilling it.  If we have a pot of some
sort with a lid and fashion a hose to it.  We just boil the mud and extract
the water when it evaperates.
JhC


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 15:12:24 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      HITalia<>food planning

        I have found a place I think is sutable for organic
gardening.  It is about 20 miles from where I landed.  I have a small
assortment of seeds (mostly vegetable, but also some herbs) and would
like to start planting soon.  I will need something to use as a
shovel and a weelbarrow.  I would also like a few voulenteers to help
with preparations.  I will be returning in a few days, bringing some
food animals.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 14:53:20 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: RECON_THE_BAD_NEWS

        Well, looking back on the event a little bit, it seems to be more of
a hallucination.  Anyway, what was happening was whenever I was wondering
something, I would hear a set of directions directing me towards whatever I was
wondering about.  It does not seem to be happening anymore, which is why I think
it might have been hallucination.  Except for the little dudes.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 10:05:55 -0500
From: Helen
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

Yikes, we've been on the planet just a couple of days, and
already the guys are killing animals and raping women.  Now,
they're talking about "protecting" (read controlling)
because of our reproductive capabilites (there go
reproductive rights) and parcelling us out as property
(there go our civil liberties).  It's deja vu all over
again.  I gotta get myself and the rest of the women outta
here.
I go over to my trusty backpack, dig down beyond the 6 power
bars and my towel.  Yes! Here it is my battered copy of
Hitchhiker's Gudie to the Galaxy with its friendly "DON'T
PANIC" on the cover.  Well, I'm about to panic.  I call the
rest of the women over and tell them my plan.  Most decide
to get the hell out of Dodge.  One or two with strong ties
to individual men decide to stay but wish the rest of us
well.
I activate the beacon.  I feel I should say I'm sorry, Norm.
 I thought you had something here, but it all started again,
and I can't be a party to it this time around.  And none of
us will let our daughters be a part.   Wait....wait...hot
damn!!!!....the guide has done it this time.....it has
flagged down....a STARSHIP!!!!!  The ship has locked its
transporters on my signal and the small group of women.  I
feel the faint dizziness that comes from transporting.
We're out of here!!!
Next thing I know, we're standing on the transpsorter pad
while some smiling bald guy, pulling on his captain's
uniform, welcomes us aboard.  He also asks if the other
survivors want to be rescued. All the women look at each
other and in unison answer "NO."

On the way to our quarters and the food replicators, I'm
thinking about what I'll have for dinner: veggie
potstickers, black bean tofu with brown rice, sake, and for
dessert, something very chocolate.  Maybe after dinner I can
find a poker game.......

Helen


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 18:20:40 -0500
From: George
Subject:      Hitalia

Let's not be so vain as to think this "telepathy" or "hearing" phenomena
is exclusive to us. The native flora and fauna may be communicating with
each other. We don't seem to have any trouble killing the wabbits and
other small game which would indicate they aren't receiving our voracious
thoughts. Perhaps, the ability works only among each species or it may be
determined by the level of intelligence. The latter would explain our
erratic receptions from the large, "lurking" beasts and why so many
survivors don't answer the rest of us telepathically.

George


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 11:51:45 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      Engage'

Visitors,

We speak through what was the one nor-man, who is no more,
is not one, is Engage'.

REM: subsong, (njp(TRAN))

I am able to speak to you this one last time.  As you receive
this, "I" no longer has a direct meaning.

This is necessary.  The nab-or "language" is so fundamentally
different from human speech that communication would be
impossible without the expedient of a human conduit.  Even so,
communication will be, at least at first, extremely awkward.

The na-bor is so utterly alien to our concepts of intelligence that
I cannot in my pre-merged state grasp much sense of it, except
for it's strangeness.  And immense beauty.

I hesitate to characterize na-bor speech in any way, because I am
certain to distort it.  When I am fully merged, I will become a
virtual compiler and interpreter.  My function will be to process
our two intelligences, seeking a "best fit" approximation of
meaning.  What I have sensed of the na-bor sentience so far
convinces me that the "best fit" will be no better at first than a
leisure suit at a Brooks Brothers Company picnic.

Until I am "merged" (the na-bor uses a concept more akin
linguistically to "engaged," or "subsumed," or "involved" - all
of these, and none precisely) I understand its nature no better
than a passerby "understands" the entire musicality of Bach from
overhearing a single note.

Why me?  That's what I've been trying to figure out from the
moment I sensed the na-bor presence.  It was the na-bor, by the
way, that has sustained the telepathic faculty many of us have
noticed since we landed.  I don't fully understand why the na-
bor has chosen to use me as its communications conduit, but it
has made me aware, at some deep emotional level, that I am
"enormously nothing special," and therefore less apt to interfere
with the exchange of intelligence.  Somehow the na-bor knows
that I am not the brightest, nor the cleverest, nor the most
remarkable of our species.  In the na-bor view, I am something
of a middle bear - not too hot, not too cold, nothing special, but
in so being, particularly well suited to the role of conduit.

And I believe the na-bor also sensed I would be willing, indeed
eager, to be "merged."  It has given me a sample of the merge,
just a taste of what to expect, and the experience was quite
beyond description.  The merge is nothing like what we might
think of as death or insanity, but a bursting of the ego envelope,
and a filling with the "surround," and "surreal."

Words, moreover our entire collective human memory of
experience fail completely as referents.  The merging is in the
Soto Zen way, beyond description.  It may be experienced, but
not spoken of, for who is it that would describe wholeness
without being separate?

Do not think of me as dead, but as "integrated," dissolved like
color in water, or river with ocean.  The na-bor, which BTW
has a strange, but comprehensible sense of humor, negotiated the
word "engage'" with me to inform you of what has happened.
To the na-bor the word means "no boundary," and "penetrable"
and "intracourse."  At the settling of the neologism "intracourse"
the na-bor fairly chimed with amusement (the na-bor doesn't
laugh, it more like shimmers.)

It thought the entire notion of human sexual union absurd.  "But
that is only a smallness part of yourselves," it chimed.  "What a
little oneness you make so much of."  And that is when it gave
me a sample of "engage'."  It was only a vague sample of what
to expect, it told me, but it was enough to convince me.

So this is the last un-engage' communication I will send.  From
this point on, you will be in contact with the na-bor any time
you focus your thought toward it.  You may recognize
something of what I was from time to time, because the na-bor's
meaning will be communicated to you in the idiom of our
speech.  But I will from this moment on cease to continue as an
individual.

Karuna, all, attend to your needs.

Agape'

Norm


---
Date:         Wed, 21 Apr 1993 21:22:13 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Hitalian Predator

I was off on another one of my hunting expeditions (which, by the way,
tendons from deer make better bow strings than vines), and I stumbled across
a set of VERY LARGE animal tracks.  Apparently a biped.  I was studying the
tracks more closely when whatever it was jumps out of a tree on me.  To be
honest, I didn't get a very good look at it; at first I was too busy being
battered then I was too busy running.  Whatever it is it has got claws, and
sharp ones too.  I used to be a bouncer in a popular nightclub in
Springfield, Illinois, so I have some experience with going head to head
with other bipeds, but let me tell you I've never been knocked around like
that before in my life.  MEDIC!!!

Kurt


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 00:04:09 -0500
From: Bob
Subject:      Re: Hitalia - Marian's Testimony

To all the members of Hitalia; from Marian

My husband Bob initially didn't want me to communicate with the
collective group, as he felt I had been through enough torment
over the last several days.  But I convinced him to help me speak
to you.  I believe it is important that I tell you exactly what I
remember about my attack, and how important it is that we find the
person who did this.  The thought of that person still being out
there, waiting for another chance, absolutely terrifies me.

Last Monday evening, after sunset, Bob and I were in camp,
finishing-up a meal.  Kurt and Greg had dropped by
to visit with Bob about something, and both left together in
relatively good spirits.  I saw someone that looked like Bella,
a young lady I had met on the SHIP, hanging back in the
trees away from our camp.  I don't know why she was there, as she
and I never spoke to each other following the crash.  Lane
was lurking around the camp watching us intently.  Lane didn't
move around much, but when he did move he seemed to be very
deliberate about it.

As it was beginning to get dark, Mark C came by our camp
and asked Bob to give him a hand with the shelter he was trying to
build up the hill, about 15-20 minutes away.  Bob and Mark C had
only been gone a few minutes when I walked into the shelter for
water to clean up.  Something came out of the darkness behind me
and hit me in the head.  I don't remember hitting the floor.

I have no idea how long I was out.  I clearly remember the extreme
headache I was having as I became conscious.  My mind was
initially cloudy as nothing seemed to connect; I wondered if I was
dead.  When I tried to move, I found my hands bound above and
behind me.  At first I thought I was blind, then realized I was
blindfolded and gagged.  I remember a burning, very painful
sensation in my groin, and movement between my legs.  There was no
weight on top of me, yet I realized I was being penetrated.
Somehow it was very different from when Bob and I made love.  This
was very different!  The thrusts were brutal and savage - an
unnatural rhythm.  Every pumping movement was more forceful and
went so deep I thought it would tear me apart.  The feeling of my
body being violated made me weep bitterly.  I had never been so
humiliated or defiled.  I wanted to die.  There are times, now,
when I still feel that way.

The next thing I remember were sharp pains along my forearms, and
then my arms and hands being freed.  I just laid there, terrified,
afraid, in pain.  I heard no noise other than the beating of my
heart through my eardrums, then the wind blowing past the trees
and the chirping of the tree frogs outside.  I pulled the
blindfold and gag off my face, and found myself alone - so alone.

Although it was an ordeal I never want repeated, the strangest
thing was the loss of a locket I always wore around my neck.  It
was a small, gold, heart-shaped locket that opened to a photo of
Bob and I, inscribed; "To my beloved wife with all my love - Bob".
Since that night, I have been unable to find that locket.  The
piece has no value to anyone other than to me - why would someone
take it?

Please find the person who did this!  Such crimes should not be
allowed here - not here.  I came with you because I too wanted to
leave the violence and hatred of Old Earth.  And please be patient
with Bob's anger.  Don't let him kill himself or anyone else.  I
don't want anyone's blood on my consequence.  I just want to be
safe and to live.

Marian


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 14:57:32 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Hitalia

    Good news.  That mud that someone was complaining about is a
pretty decent clay.  I molded a few very crude bowls on some smooth
rocks, and fired them.  Two shattered because of impurities, but the
remaining one is a pretty good vessel.  Holds about two gallons.
It's not stable, it's got not lid, but I've been boiling water in it.
    Also, I've found some marsh grass that seems pretty pliant, even
when dry.  The bad news is, it's not very strong -- we're going to
have to use a LOT of it to make decent rope, but I've set some people
to braiding.
    Boiled water, anyone?
    G.


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 15:21:50 +22311259
From: Michael K
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

>
> Yikes, we've been on the planet just a couple of days, and
> already the guys are killing animals and raping women.  Now,
> they're talking about "protecting" (read controlling)
> because of our reproductive capabilites (there go
> reproductive rights) and parcelling us out as property
> (there go our civil liberties).  It's deja vu all over
> again.  I gotta get myself and the rest of the women outta
> here.
> I go over to my trusty backpack, dig down beyond the 6 power
> bars and my towel.  Yes! Here it is my battered copy of
> Hitchhiker's Gudie to the Galaxy with its friendly "DON'T
> PANIC" on the cover.  Well, I'm about to panic.  I call the
> rest of the women over and tell them my plan.  Most decide
> to get the hell out of Dodge.  One or two with strong ties
> to individual men decide to stay but wish the rest of us
> well.
> I activate the beacon.  I feel I should say I'm sorry, Norm.
>  I thought you had something here, but it all started again,
> and I can't be a party to it this time around.  And none of
> us will let our daughters be a part.   Wait....wait...hot
> damn!!!!....the guide has done it this time.....it has
> flagged down....a STARSHIP!!!!!  The ship has locked its
> transporters on my signal and the small group of women.  I
> feel the faint dizziness that comes from transporting.
> We're out of here!!!
> Next thing I know, we're standing on the transpsorter pad
> while some smiling bald guy, pulling on his captain's
> uniform, welcomes us aboard.  He also asks if the other
> survivors want to be rescued. All the women look at each
> other and in unison answer "NO."
>
> On the way to our quarters and the food replicators, I'm
> thinking about what I'll have for dinner: veggie
> potstickers, black bean tofu with brown rice, sake, and for
> dessert, something very chocolate.  Maybe after dinner I can
> find a poker game.......
>
>
> Helen

Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!  Now, can we please get on to discussion and the Hitalia
bunch can take this to a nice MUD somewhere?

Mike K


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 17:04:40 CDT
From: Mark S
Subject:      The Hitalian Toll

Things are getting grim around here.  First the women take off in a Vorgon
space ship to dine on veggies and sprouts, Norm gets subsumed into the local
equivalent of tapoica pudding and Kurt gets himself chewd up by Smokey the Bear.
At lease we know now which day of the week is Monday on this planet.  I'll
put some leaves with bacteriacidal juice on Kurt's wounds but will be able to
do nothing if a raging bacterial infection sets in, other that to get that
sword that way being passed around and use if for a quick amputation.  How long
can this go on?
Mark S
ps I'm losing my mind and making ESP typos.


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 17:08:12 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      Re: Engage'

O, great. So, Norm, have you disentegrated into the ether, or do you
look the same but walk stiffer, or have you just turned into a large
toadstool?

BTW, there were a number of automatons listed on the Ship's Manifest.
(Netnews server, "hit NEWS-FEED", etc) Are these android wandering
around with us, or were they destroyed with the SHIP? Does your
new state of "na-bor" give you any insight? Can I have your hat?
What happened to the woMen?

Lane


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 17:37:00 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      HELEN-WHEELS

There goes our reason for living.

Norm


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 18:35:29 EDT
From: Chris
Subject:      Re: Rape Investigation

Lane,

If your talking to me, I'll be glad to stand as Witness--just let me fetch my r
obe.  I've been very quiet since the beginning of this because I've been rather
 busy back on Earth--but here I am, at least until the research paper I'm suppo
sed to be working on get close to deadline.  This discussion is incredibly inte
resting!  By the way, Norm, I know quite a bit about wilderness survival, but m
y technical expertise is quite limited--put me in a hunting/ranging party to be
gin with.  (Watch out for snakes everyone, this climate reminds me of home...)

Gee, I've never had a real sabre before.  I had a Katana, once, but never reall
y learned how to use it.  Do you suppose, Lane, that if everything goes OK with
 your difficulty you could teach me about this weapon I get to hold?

Chris


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 19:03:36 EDT
From: Chris
Subject:      Re: MMG

I think the point of splitting into smaller groups is to help this generation t
o survive.  How many people can the un-cultivated resources of a small geo-area
 support?  300 people require a lot of calories.  I think we could get around t
he genetics problem by requiring cross-clan marriages and fostering children be
tween clans.  This would also help keep the political scene stable as the years
 progress--our differences would not lead to blood shed (hopefully) if we had s
isters and brothers in most other clans.

Chris


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 18:14:51 EST
From: Dave
Subject:      Re: Hitalia: food

In a recent posting, Papa Smurf writes:
>
>HeLLLLLp I need to Unsubscribe!!!!!  Hellllppppppp!!!!!!
>                Papa Smurf

I think we found our rapist!  Too panicked in his desparate flight from
justice to remember how to use listserv.

I'll get the rope.

Dave


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 20:32:56 -0600
From: Goose
Subject:      Re: Hitalian Predator

Kurt wrote:
>
>I was off on another one of my hunting expeditions (which, by the way,
>tendons from deer make better bow strings than vines), and I stumbled across
>a set of VERY LARGE animal tracks.  Apparently a biped.  I was studying the
>tracks more closely when whatever it was jumps out of a tree on me.  To be
>honest, I didn't get a very good look at it; at first I was too busy being
>battered then I was too busy running.  Whatever it is it has got claws, and
>sharp ones too.  I used to be a bouncer in a popular nightclub in
>Springfield, Illinois, so I have some experience with going head to head
>with other bipeds, but let me tell you I've never been knocked around like
>that before in my life.  MEDIC!!!
>

Just a thought, but what if it wasn't one of us men that committed the
rape?  Might it have been the biped that attacked Kurt?  Has anyone got
a good look at this creature?

Hope your feeling better Kurt.

Goose


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 21:43:57 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      >A Body Found

          There's a body out here, in the woods!? One of our people, or a
          native?

          One of ours, eh? A woman's body, ripped asunder by a local
          beasty? By god, that's the last straw. Hey, Two, can you get a
          closer look there? Yeah, I know, but we have to know who it is.

          Belle? Are you sure? Isn't she married to someone? This is awful
          ... just awful.

          What's that? There's something in her hand? A locket, you say,
          inscribed to Marion from Bob. Hmmm. Bad sign. That could be the
          locket Bob said Marion's rapist ripped from her neck. Holy cow,
          either Belle's the rapist -- I can't imagine! -- or she knew the
          rapist. Her husband? I don't know. Pairing up for murder ...
          that's beyond belief.

          Yeah ... this is sick ... if we leave the pieces out like this,
          she's going to get eaten. Oh *gulp* I don't feel too good. Two,
          Three ... I'll stay here with you guys. One and Four, why don't
          you head back to the camp and tell the others, especially Bob and
          her husand, if she has one. They'll want to see this.

          I _really_ don't feel good.


          Lane


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:36:45 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      >Don't Go!

          Please Helen -- reconsider! Don't rush off without talking to us!
          You're not giving the rest of the group a chance. Come talk to
          me, Helen. Yes, come talk to me.

          >Well, I'm about to panic.

          That's okay. I panicked in my pants several days ago. :-) Really,
          helen, there's nothing to panic about here. We're just getting
          started. We're still waiting for the dice to stop tumbling about
          the velvet table and show us our fates.

          >Yikes, we've been on the planet just a couple of days, and
          >already the guys are killing animals

          Hey, we gotta eat sumpthin' or we're not going to be good for
          anything, especially surviving. No intake, no outtake. Just like
          a car. And babe, we gotta get _going!_ If some big purple monster
          comes stomping around here outta his wits for food 'cause his
          ship broke down over in the next valley, well, heck, he's gonna
          eat _us_ lickity split.

          >and raping women.

          Now hold on there. No one said it was a man that committed this
          rape ... well, 'ceptin' me, of course, and I was just pulling
          straw out of a hat. Fact is, we just found Belle dead in the
          woods not a mile that way. She had Marian's locket.

          I'm not accusing _anyone_ of raping Marian. Lord knows _I'm_ not
          going to jump off my rocket to accuse someone falsely. But either
          Belle did the rape, knew who did the rape, or just discovered who
          did the rape, and something got to her.

          None of us are as safe here as we think. Hitalia has proven to be
          a battle, if not with the local fauna and felons, then at least
          with our morale and teamwork. We still don't know what has
          happened to Cousin Norm.

          Helen, these beasties, these "na-bors", might have sensed Belle
          trucking through the woods, her mind aflame with rape and
          violence and blood and hate. Her emotions, so dark and heavy,
          could have been _such_ a juxtaposition to the naturally satoric
          and empathic minds of the na-bors that they could do nothing but
          destroy the vessel that carried her soul, freeing her for
          _immediate_ absorption into the na-bor essence

          Maybe.

          Can you  hear me, Cousin Norm? Is Belle ringing out there
          somewhere?

          >The ship has locked its
          >transporters on my signal and the small group of women. I
          >feel the faint dizziness that comes from transporting.

          Wait Helen! Don't Go! We need you here, we need your wisdom to
          help us grow a government that concerned with _all_ rights (all
          right!) and for the protection of all of us here. Of course the
          men want to protect you! And I want you to protect Me! This isn't
          a one-way street.

          We _need_ you Helen. Anyone who can stomach power bars has the
          will and fortitude to stand up to the na-bor. Give us a hand,
          won't cha?

          All you've said so far is "I gotta get myself and the rest of the
          women outta here." Can't you offer any other advise?

          Come talk to me.


          Lane
          (who figures Helen's initial response will be "I'd advise you to
          go jump in a lake.")


---
Date:         Thu, 22 Apr 1993 22:43:47 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      >Leadership Needed

Anybody heard from Chris? Several have asked for his opinion
about serving as a leader, but he hasn't responded.

Chris? Are you out there? Can you help us bring about a peace-
loving government, with taxes from none and rights for all?

And if not Chris, how 'bout Helen? Those that want out the
most probably have the best ideas about what needs to be done.

Ever swung the sword of judgement, Helen?

Lane


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 04:01:00 EST
From: Papa Smurf
Subject:      Re: Rape Investigation

I've been lurking around lately, trying to see what group I might
best fit in with and be of use.  If the sheriff is still recruiting, I'd
like to join his Law Enforcement team (I've had training in unarmed combat
and various tools that might be beneficial in aiding an investigation).
Granted, I stand out a little (being blue), but I have great night vision
and a keen sense of smell (so maybe I can use that to detedt any person
smells out of place near where the crime took place).  Well, anyway-
the offer's open.
                        Still Blue,
                                Papa Smurf


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:14:05 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      Re: >Don't Go!

Karuna, Lan-e,

"We still don't know what has
          happened to Cousin Norm.

~is engage', is merge'~

          Helen, these beasties, these "na-bors",

~What is "beastie," Lan-e?"

        might have sensed Belle

~na-bor senseis all cent-ee-ents~

          trucking through the woods, her mind aflame with rape and
          violence and blood and hate. Her emotions, so dark and heavy,
          could have been _such_ a juxtaposition to the naturally satoric
          and empathic minds of the na-bors

~we have no cause for dressing, for sartorial practices~

~yes, empathy, knowing of mind~

        that they could do nothing but
        destroy the vessel that carried her soul, freeing her for
          _immediate_ absorption into the na-bor essence Maybe.

          Can you  hear me, Cousin Norm? Is Belle ringing out there"

~Do not confuse na-bor with fee-line living forms.  na-bor will not inter-fear.

Belle fee-male no longer sings.  Is not engage', not merge'.  Unsinging in the
strings of nerve.  Dissociate.~

~we hear you, Lan-e; direct thinking on us, we hear.~

~Why do hu-mans unintracourse male/fee-male?  Why are not all hu-man/one?~

ENDCOM:(N(TRAN))


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:56:36 -0500
From: Helen
Subject:      Re: >Don't Go!

The ship's captain has found a communication channel which
seems compatiable with our new communications skills.  This
will be my last communication with the planet before we go
to WARP speed.  I'm sorry to hear about Belle; I tried to
convince her and Marian to leave.
To update you on the status here: after hot showers and
plenty of food and chocolate, the women gathered to talk
about the situation on the planet.  Suggestions ranged from
transporting you all to the ship against your wills to
nuking the planet from outer space (this from a woman who
has seen ALIENS one too many times).  We decided against the
latter, mostly due to the indigenous life forms.  The
captain suggested a trill mediator might be the best hope of
working out things between you and the na-bors.  By the way,
Norm, he cautions you against violating the prime directive.
 You especially can't teach the na-bors how to make fudge or
play games of chance.
Well, guys, as to advice and leadership, I'm the wrong
person to ask.  As an agent of chaos on this plane of
existence, my job is to subvert and bring disorder, not
institute order.  My only advice for the future would be if
Norm tries to take you somewhere make sure of the baggage
you're taking with you.
This channel will remain open for two minutes before we've
gone to warp; you must hurry and decide if any of you want
out or if you want the trill.  The mediator would arrive in
three weeks.  Helen out.

Helen


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:41:28 -0500
From: Steven
Subject:      Re: The Hitalian Toll

> Things are getting grim around here.  First the women take
> off in a Vorgon space ship to dine on veggies and sprouts,
> Norm gets subsumed into the local equivalent of tapoica
> pudding and Kurt gets himself chewd up by Smokey the Bear.
> At lease we know now which day of the week is Monday on this
> planet.  I'll put some leaves with bacteriacidal juice on
> Kurt's wounds but will be able to do nothing if a raging
> bacterial infection sets in, other that to get that sword
> that way being passed around and use if for a quick
> amputation.  How long can this go on? Mark S ps
> I'm losing my mind and making ESP typos.

>

As women again demonstrate their superior judgement -
taking off on the nearest cozy starcruiser for some good
veggie eats and some holodeck dancing while a bunch of
loser men flail around in the muck wondering what sort of
stone knives they can make to secure those bearskins.

Hitalia is a _bust_ folks, because as the rabbits at
Watership Down quickly realised; no women - no future...

Steven


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:28:12 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      >Law Enforcement

Papa Smurf said:
>I've been lurking around lately, trying to see what group I might
>best fit in with and be of use.

What, no way outta town? Trapped like a bug like the rest of us?

>If the sheriff is still recruiting, I'd
>like to join his Law Enforcement team

Hmmm. If yer referring to me (Lane), yeah, that'd be great! However,
"Law Enforcement" is a moot term here in Hitalia. There _are_ no
laws.

But there are troubles here, Papa, and that's with a capital "T" and
that stand for Tricky na-bors soaking the soul outta the citizens
of Hitalia. We've already lost Cousin Norm and Prefessor Bob ...
if "lost" is the right word.

Might be time to circle the wagons, if ya get my drift.

Lane


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:37:12 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      >The Sword of Leadership

Yes, welcome Chris ... you've got my saber (careful,
it's pointy).

Whadda ya wanna do 'bout these na-bors? Should we send 'em
off to see Mr. Rogers? They've killed one of us, raped another.
Who's next?

What's the plan, Chris?

Lane


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 11:13:27 -0700
From: Michael C
Subject:      Hitalian Survival

I've heard a lot of proposals about how we should all live here on Hitalia and
I think we need to remember a few things.

1. You can't make anyone do anything here unless you want to be the enforcer of
your own laws.  Since there are no borders or nations (that we know of at
least) a person can simply walk away from your laws.

2.  You can't dictate the reproductive practices of the women or men.  No
matter what the benefit to the gene pool you can't make people make babies with
anyone other that their chosen mate.  Some (like me) may not want to have
children at all.

3.  There will never be a concensus as to how we will all live on this planet.
With all this unexplored area if someone trys to make too many laws there will
all ways be people taking off.

Cooperation is great but a single person can go it alone here.
I for one really don't care to see humans take over this planet.  If we just
live out or lives in peace then die that's fine by me.  There are plenty of
folks back on earth.

Michael C


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:19:03 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

   Ok, did any of you explorers find any type of salt?  Since we don't have
   refrigerators to keep the meat in, salt is the best preservative around.
   Also I heard we need salt in our diet to continue to be healthy.  Also
   is there any fruit that has vitamin C in it?  If we don't find it everyone
   here will be getting scurvy.  Or if we can make some sort of vinager to
   mix with water that will prevent it from happening.  Also what is the
   vitamin situation?  We can use those for a while to help keep us healthy.
   Did anybody find any equipment to analyze the soil?  If it is not toxic
   to us then we can start growing crops from earth like vegies and fruit.
The soil does not seem to be toxic.  I am planning an organic gardening
expedition thingy in the near future and need some people for help.  Would you
like to voulinteer?
       Just some suggestions
       JHC
--Turlu


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:36:32 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: Engage'

        Oh dear, What are they doing here?  I thought I was rid of them.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:31:21 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

   Let's not be so vain as to think this "telepathy" or "hearing" phenomena
   is exclusive to us. The native flora and fauna may be communicating with
   each other. We don't seem to have any trouble killing the wabbits and
   other small game which would indicate they aren't receiving our voracious
   thoughts. Perhaps, the ability works only among each species or it may be
   determined by the level of intelligence. The latter would explain our
   erratic receptions from the large, "lurking" beasts and why so many
   survivors don't answer the rest of us telepathically.
That's a good thought there.  I haven't been giving the "telepathy" much
thought, and it has taken some getting used to.  (I found it to be somewhat
erratic when I first got here, at least with respect to the human types here.)
I would also conjecture that the "strength" or whatever of the phenomonon
might also be determined by modes of brain activity (thought, emotions, ...).
As I had trouble thinking in English before, this might explain why my
"connection" with you people was erratic for a while {or it could be explained
by our mail server going down for a couple days :> }.  But everything here
that is in any way organic seems to have some sort of telepathic/emotive/...
link to every other such thing.

   George


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 13:38:40 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: Hitalian Predator

        Can you describe this predator a bit?  How tall?  Build?  tracks? ...
--Turlu


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 16:24:57 -0500
From: Bob
Subject:      Hitialia: Epilogue

We have been making incorrect assumptions all along.

The planet of Hitialia looked like Earth, but it wasn't Earth.

We assumed the ecology was the same, but it wasn't.  No evidence of a
top level predator affecting the prey animals, yet the prey animals
were so very alert, attentive, and intelligent.  Something was
keeping them from dominating the various habitats available.  That
something was indigenous, present, and among us.

We assumed the crash victums would immediate establish some form of
government.  They did not.  They were, in fact, inhibited from
any organized, collective activity.  Rather than banding together,
they were actively breaking down familiar social patterns of
behavior and isolating themselves.

Various people began feeling strange - out of touch - psyched out.
This was especially true of those who struck out on their own and
then returned to the group with useful information.

An apparent rape occurred, at least we all assumed it was a rape.
In fact it was not a rape, but rather an experiment, an
investigation, a study of "alien" anatomy and reproductive biology
by a native resident of the planet.  Belle was not Belle, just as
Norm is not now Norm, but na-bor.

We assumed Lane committed the rape - he did not.
We assumed Belle assaulted Marian - she did not.
We thought we controlled our new, human destiny on this
   planet, with all our human ideals in place:


We did not!


Bob


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 16:24:25 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      Re: >Don't Go!

>This channel will remain open for two minutes

Oh well. I think those two minutes have rolled over by now. See ya.

>Well, guys, as to advice and leadership, I'm the wrong
>person to ask.

Obviously.

>As an agent of chaos on this plane of
>existence, my job is to subvert and bring disorder, not
>institute order.

You didn't do either. No order no chaos. Just a flippant goodbye.
Perhaps you should consider a career change. Perhaps as a cruise
director.

>The mediator wjould arrive in three weeks.

We don't need no stinkin' trill. Without women, there is
nothing to negotiate, other than the na-bors' ability to
reconstruct our SHIP so we can chase you down.

Lane


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 19:34:52 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      Re: >Don't Go!

TRAN(N(B)):

We lose hearing of the mind, the 1-Hel-en, at dist
at going away.  We learn by joining, re-moving edges, engag-ing, ate is eaten.

Part of parts of themselves, dissociate, disengage.  Parts
is parts, fee-male, male.

Non-inter-fearing, joining, (self-as-many-1s,
can the 1 hel-en tell:) why are fee-male ones distancing?  How will joining
be from distancing?

END(TRAN)


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 19:52:39 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      Re: >Law Enforcement

TRAN:((N))

T"tricky na-bors soaking the soul outta the citizens
of Hitalia."

~Not in the weigh of trick: natural.

~Tricks from separation.  Truth from merging.  Soul of hu-man 1x1x1,
all edges.

~Blame is not outside, is inside packages: (1)<->(1).  No-thing taken from
hu-mans.

~Observe, co-municate, learn by joining: a word of hu-man mind:
rape = entering, surrounding unwonton.  It is a hu-
man word.  Am I under-standing?~

END(TRAN)


---
Date:         Fri, 23 Apr 1993 20:01:40 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      Re: >The Sword of Leadership

"do 'bout these na-bors? Should we send 'em
off to see Mr. Rogers? They've killed one of us, raped another"

MEM(RETIEVE)(N(TRAN)):

~Song: One-der-full day hood...
~Is this best of songs?~

ENDMEM((RETRIEVE(N))TRAN:
~Who is Rogersthat kills, rapes?~

ENDTRAN


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 15:57:43 CDT
From: Kurt
Subject:      Re: Hitalian Predator

>
>       Can you describe this predator a bit?  How tall?  Build?  tracks? ...
>
Well . . . . BIG!!  Hard to say, but I would guess about 2 meters.  Very
heavy; it rendered me helpless in seconds.  Tracks looked vaguely human only
longer and narrower.  Does anyone have any aspirin?

Kurt


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 18:37:24 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: Hitalian Predator

>>
>>       Can you describe this predator a bit?  How tall?  Build?  tracks? ...
>>
>Well . . . . BIG!!  Hard to say, but I would guess about 2 meters.  Very
>heavy; it rendered me helpless in seconds.  Tracks looked vaguely human only
>longer and narrower.  Does anyone have any aspirin?
>
        Well, I don't have any aspirin, but I do have some IBP.  Anyway, I have
a fair idea what these predator thingys are.  They seem to be alien to this
planet, and at war with the short ones that I met earlier.  They probably think
we are some sort of food.  They happen to have some diffuculty climbing the
trees here, or so I've heard.  I've never seen one, much less one climbing a
tree.  That's the only thing I can think of that match your description.  BTW,
they have toes about the length of human fingers, and their hands are similarly
lengthened.  I think.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 18:01:20 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Hitalia discovered

    You all had better get under cover.  I'm sure the only reason
they didn't spot us from orbit and just teleport us one by one is
that it's cloudy.  They probably sent down a squad to find someone
isolated and up him.  They stumbled on me first, so they probably set
down somewhere near the mud flats.
    G.


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 17:59:03 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Hitalia

    Hitalians -- can you hear me?  I'm sending this from orbit, and I
hope it gets through.
    I was at the mud, getting clay for more pots, when I heard
someone call out.  I turned around to see someone in the uniform of a
Federation Shock Trooper.  Before I knew what was happening, I was
hit -- probably by a neural stunner.  I assume they've teleported me
up.
    I'm in a cell.  There's a plastic mattress, a toilet, and steel
walls.  I don't know what's going on, but somehow the government has
found us.  If they're sending Shock Troopers, they must not be
pleased with the situation.
    I'll broadcast more as I learn it.
    G.


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:40:02 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Hitalia orbit

    The door just opened... woman walked in, she's in the
uniform of a Shock Trooper, but without all the ground assault
gear... tall, maybe 6'5", dark ponytail, doesn't have the frail
structure of a low gravity dweller... maybe genenhanced?  Or maybe
just tall.
    She just sat down on nothing, only to have a chair teleported
under her, a desk materializing just in front.  Very showy.
    If they've got teleport control that fine shipboard, why's she
wearing a sidearm?
    "Greg Stone."
    "Uh... you have me at a disadvantage."
    She cocked one eyebrow at that one.  She'd really be my type if
she wasn't my jailer.
    "Commander Sarah Miller.  Welcome to the Strike Cruiser Silence."
    A Strike Cruiser?  For a rescue mission?
    "I've been plugged for your dossier, Mr. Stone.  Martial artist,
but not very good.  Journalist, slightly more successful.  Outspoken
supporter of the Leo 6 rebellion."
    "Your dossier is incorrect."
    "Oh?"
    "I opposed the suppression of the rebellion.  I didn't support
it."
    "I stand corrected.  There are some other errors in your
dossier; last reported location Mars station 7, boarding the SHIP for
a tour of 3 planets.  SHIP is missing, all hands presumed dead."
    She steepled her fingers.  What's she up to?
    "Commander... could you please tell me what's going on?"    "What
don't you understand?"
    "For one thing... why send in a Strike Cruiser full of Shock
Troopers for a rescue mission?"
    "A RESCUE mission?  Mr. Stone, your dossier must be more
mistaken than you know... it presents you as cowardly and unreliable,
but hardly stupid."
    Ok.  She's trying to provoke me.
    She's actually doing a fine job.
    "Are you going to explain what's going on, or just continue to
stun me, 'port me, and insult me against my will?"
    She laughed.
    "Apparently you've been played for a fool, Mr. Stone.  You
thought you were going on a nice pleasure trip, correct?  And your
generically named ship crashed.
    "Did you ever stop to ask yourself why a planet so suited to
humankind was uncolonized, in the middle of our space?
    "Someone on your ship is guilty of hijacking, sabotage, espionage
and treason.  Someone stole secret government files revealing the
existance of Zeta 412..."
    "Zeta 412?"
    "Sorry.  That's the official name of the planet you're on."
    "Oh.  I apologize for interrupting, please continue."
    "Quite all right.  They stole the files, sent the ship there,
crashed it, and illegally established a colony.  Everyone on that
planet is technically under suspicion of rebellion."
    "Hence the Strike Cruiser."
    "We wouldn't have even suspected if we hadn't gotten word from a
Orjean Free Trader.  Apparently he picked up a group of panicky
Earthwomen telling tales of rape, brutality and forced eugenics.
The transmission was a little garbled, so we thought the name of the
illegal colony was Hitleria."
    I knew the name would get us in trouble.
    "Naturally, he informed us."
    "I'm surprised.  Orjean traders aren't very friendly with the
Gaeocentric government."
    "The women asked him to.  They felt there were some men there
worth rescuing, but understandably didn't want them on ship with
THEM."
    "How fortunate for them."
    "Not necessarily so.  The state has a much better treason case
against the woman who had an interstellar communicator but didn't
call us with it."
    "The state may have trouble per... I mean, PROSecuting their case
if she's in Orjean custody."
    The captain just shrugged.
    "I've dispatched a destroyer to negotiate ask him for her.  I
doubt the Orjean want to create an incident over a rag tag group of
hitchikers."
    "The military's up to its same old tricks, isn't it?  A scent of
trouble and you jump in with both jackboots."
    That stung her.  She's flushed.
    She stands up and gestures.  The chair and desk vanish.
More show.  Bravo.
    Oh, looks like she's regained her composure.  She's still
standing.  I'm still sitting.

    "Mr. Stone, you may not be very brave or patriotic, but your
record indicates that you know what's good for you."
    "You keep referring to my cowardice.  I'm curious how that got in
my dossier."  Are my eyes really brown?
    "I inferred it.  As soon as we'd conquered Leo 6, you backed off
of your support."
    "When we conquered Leo 6, evidence came to light that the
rebellion had been comitting atrocities.  Of course I was appalled."
    "Has it ever occurred to you that without you stabbing us in the
back, we might have been able to prevent those atrocities?"
    She wants to yell?  Fine, I'll yell too.
    "Has it ever occurred to YOU that if we'd NEGOTIATED a little
longer instead of charging in guns blazing, we MIGHT not have scared
him into it?"
    "Listen Stone, I was THERE.  I had half my face regrown because
my FP caught a morningstar right across the cockpit.  Now I don't
know how much more support we would have gotten without you yelling
'stop' and I don't know how much difference it would have made, but I
know that we could have decimated them fast if we'd been authorized
to bring in more of the fleet!"
    Oh god.  Her hand's on the gun.

    G.


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:45:14 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Hitalia Orbit

    "Please don't shoot me."
    That got her hand off the gun anyhow.  God.
    "Shoot you, Mr. Stone?  I'm offended.  That's not how we do
things in the Navy.  Shootings leave far more evidence than, say,
transportation errors or airlock failure."
    "Not to mention it's against the law, right?"
    She's smiling.  I don't like it.
    "You're a prisoner under Navy law, Stone.  You should get used
to the idea of not having quite so many... rights."
    "But I'm a citizen!  As long as we're in Federation space..."
    "Oh, didn't I tell you?  We're not."
    Uh oh.
    "Why did you think I was sent out with a Strike Cruiser, two
light destroyers and a support frigate?  Zeta 412 is on the Frontier.
Your 'Hitalia' is in our heavy patrol zone."    G.


---
Date:         Mon, 26 Apr 1993 19:50:13 GMT-600
From: Greg

    All right.  She's left for a while -- doubtless to let me stew in
this new knowledge.
    The na-bor have to be the key.  No one, us OR them, are dumb
enough to invade telesentients on their home turf... unless they want
to use Hitalia as an excuse... they could spin control it either way;
we're a group of dangerous dissidents conspiring with aliens, or
we're hapless refugees who need to be rescued from aliens.  Either
way they can justify snaring a compatible world on the Frontier.
    She wanted me to tell where the settlement is, but didn't push
her luck.  She probably thinks that I'll roll over and squeal
voluntarily if left to my own devices -- and then be willing to agree
with whatever story she tells about Hitalia, be it invasion or
rescue.
    The only advantage I have is that she can't know about my link
with all of you -- otherwise she'd have moved the ship out of range.
    What should I do?
    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 27 Apr 1993 21:47:06 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      TTDT

TRAN(N(ALIEN/alien)):

Hearing Greg:we're a group of dangerous dissidents conspiring with aliens, or
we're hapless refugees who need to be rescued from aliens...What to do?"

~Do?  Doesbird need help to fly?

~Wait.  Breathing, breath.  Walking walk.  Captured offer no resistance.
Giving way to the invader, the invader is absorbed.

~Singing well, G, all will be refrained.~

END(N(TRAN))


---
Date:         Tue, 27 Apr 1993 20:03:25 -0700
From: Turlu
Subject:      Re: Hitalia

        Oh great.  Shock Troopers.  Just what we need.  I think I'll
try and avoid them as much as I can.  I'm still trying to find the
short people that I met earlier.  They might be able to help a bit.
--Turlu


---
Date:         Wed, 28 Apr 1993 11:01:17 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Re: TTDT

> Hearing Greg:we're a group of dangerous dissidents conspiring with aliens, or
> we're hapless refugees who need to be rescued from aliens...What to do?"
>
> ~Do?  Doesbird need help to fly?
>
> ~Wait.  Breathing, breath.  Walking walk.  Captured offer no resistance.
> Giving way to the invader, the invader is absorbed.
>
> ~Singing well, G, all will be refrained.~
>
> END(N(TRAN))

    Oh great.  Taoism from a telepath who can't handle grammar.
    The question I want answered is; do I tell Captain Miller where
the settlement is?  If I do, she'll swoop down, capture everyone, and
we probably return to our normal lives -- provided we don't get
convicted of conspiracy to rebel.  If we co-operate, we'll probably
be painted as victims, and they'll just scapegoat the person who
sabotaged SHIP as a kidnapper as well as being a traitor, hijacker,
etc.
    If I DON'T tell her where it is, it'll mean one of several
things; they land in force and try to dig us out (not hard with their
firepower) or they wait for clear weather and just teleport us up to
orbit (not feasible if we hide under trees, though) or they decide
the na-bor are too dangerous to mess with and fly away with me as
their show trial traitor.

    G.


---
Date:         Fri, 30 Apr 1993 17:02:23 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      The Final Fate of Hitalia

    Hello?  Anyone there?  Am I losing the ability to recieve and
transmit?
    Listen folks, I don't think Miller is going to wait forever.  If
I don't tell her where the settlement is, I'm writing my own
treachery sentence... as are the rest of us.  They've got me, and
will get some of you, but they won't (I hope) go full bore for fear
of the na-bor.  So some of you might be able to stay on the periphery
between the two.
    I guess what I'm asking is, is Hitalia worth saving?  I feel
strongly enough about the individual's right to leave a society if
s/he chooses that I won't turn you in unless you think it's for the
best.  On the other hand, maybe it was Norm who hijacked the
ship, solely so he could join the na-bor.  If that's the case, the
rest of us are innocent and can return to our society and our lives.
    Please tell me what to do.  I've been stuck in the position of
having the fate of Hitalia rest on me, and I don't want to decide on
my own.

    G.


---
Date:         Tue, 4 May 1993 21:13:21 -0400
From: na-bor
Subject:      Re: The Final Fate of Hitalia

TRAN(N(->G)):

After your female population left, you seemed to lose all motivation.  Perhaps
that is the most important message in your landfall here, and your initial
attempts to define and establish a civiliztion.  The landmass Hitalia (as you
have named it) has seen the arrival and struggles of many intelligent
lifeforms.  Yours is one of the most curious this planet has hosted.

The cat-like creatures you observed are one intelligent space-traveling species
that has adapted to the planetary environment and thrived.  There is also a
fish-like species that you have not encountered.

The space-raiders that have Greg in custody are a bad sort, but they will not
interfere on the surface of this planet.  Na-bor dislikes any sort of violence,
but our last encounter with the ones who have Greg captive taught them to leave
us alone.

The ultimate survival of your species on this planet depends on the outcome of
your interview with the Captain, Greg.  We suggest that you turn on the charm.

ENDTRAN:(N->G):


---
Date:         Tue, 4 May 1993 22:35:11 CDT
From: Lane
Subject:      Re: Last Transmission

Go for it, Greg. Tell her everything you know. We've got nothing to
hide. Tell her to bring us all up and question each and every
one of us. I haven't done anything wrong, and as far as I know,
no one else has, either.

I'm also curious to see what'll happen to Norm and Bob as na-bor.

Meanwhile, I've braved the wrecked ship and retrieved my glasses,
and have suffered no side effects. Ta-daa.

Lane


---
Date:         Wed, 5 May 1993 22:52:53 GMT-600
From: Greg
Subject:      Hitalia revealed

    Miller looks like her patience is wearing thin, gang.  Time to
pour on the charm, I guess... not that a telepathic race would
probably understand the concept in any but the most abstract terms...
right.
    "It was sort of difficult figuring out where our settlement was
on the map... even with the crash site marked in."
    "I'm surprised.  Your writing seems the work of a mind that's...
cunning, in the very least."
    "Dammit, I'm a journalist, not a geographer!"
    She smiles.  Charm charm charm.
    "And one versed in the classics, it appears.  So, the settlement
is where you marked?"
    "Very roughly, yes.  I have no idea about the guy who ran off
into the mountains."
    "We'll spot him once the clouds clear.  Thank you, Mr. Stone.
Your co-operation will be duly noted."
    "How do you think things will go for myself and my fellow, er,
Hitalians?"
    She shrugs.  Chilly.
    "As long as you maintain that you were totally ignorant of the
theft and sabotage, I don't see how any of you did anything wrong.
Except the ringleader, of course."
    "Can you tell me who that was?"
    She smiles.  Ice.
    "Oh that would be nothing but conjecture."
    G.


---
Date:         Thu, 6 May 1993 16:16:29 -0700
From: Mike A
Subject:      Re: Hitalia revealed

On Wed, 5 May 1993 Greg wrote:

>     "Very roughly, yes.  I have no idea about the guy who ran off
> into the mountains."
>     "We'll spot him once the clouds clear.  Thank you, Mr. Stone.
> Your co-operation will be duly noted."


Hey!  Don't leave me behind... I'm right here!

-The guy who ran off into the mountains (and the two other guys who went
        with him)

Mike A


---
This is the end of the Hitalia story.


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