From chorus!inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!abvax!iccgcc!halco 1 Dec 90 21:09:00 GMT
From: halco@iccgcc.decnet.ab.com
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Seagate ST-1144A
Date: 1 Dec 90 21:09:00 GMT
Xref: chorus comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware:2631 comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:3310

Just as I was about to upgrade my system with a new ST-1126A hard drive
(IDE, 3.5", 111 MB, Seagate/Imprimis), I find that I can get a ST-1144A (IDE,
3.5",  144MB, Seagate/?) for *less* money.  My problem is that while I have 
asked around about the 1around about the 1126A and have heard generI know zero
about the background of the 1144A.  Does anyone out there have experience
with the ST-1144A?  It's numbered like another Imprimis Swift drive but seems
to be a new design.  It also has 3 resistors and 2 rework wired tacked on the
electronics board, which may or may not imply design flaws.  Can anyone
shed some light on this for me?  If I get enough replies I will post a
summary.  Thanks.


From chorus!inria!corton!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!apple!uokmax!munnari.oz.au!bruce!cechew 7 Dec 90 04:56:47 GMT   
From: cechew@bruce.cs.monash.OZ.AU (Earl Chew)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Hard drive queries
Date: 7 Dec 90 04:56:47 GMT
References: <7982@lanl.gov>
Organization: Monash Uni. Computer Science, Australia

In <7982@lanl.gov> rdw2030@venus.tamu.edu (WIDRIG, RAQUEL DAWN) writes:

>Is it possible to have more than one hard drive controller in a given system? 
>I know you probably can, but all my attempts have failed.  Is it necessary to
>use up both "spaces" on the first card before installing a second?

Yes to the first. No to the second.

>To elaborate a bit, our 386 clone has an IDE card, and I have recently
>acquired an MFM drive.  How can I install the MFM and make that drive D?

Hmm... yes... but difficult. The problem is that your BIOS only talks to a
single controller. Your IDE drive is that controller. To install your ST506
(MFM) drive, you will require an ST506 controller (ie another controller).
Furthermore, you must get one such that you can (via jumpers) set it to reside
at the secondary controller address (usually 0x170-0x177 and 0x376 --- from
memory). Most BIOSs (mine in particular [AMI]) don't look at controllers at
that address. One further point, I had to shift the IRQ on the second
controller from IRQ14 to IRQ15. This required surgery in my case (some
controllers are switchable with requiring scalpels). If you don't shift the
IRQ, both controllers drive IRQ14 and get mixed up.

>To further this thing a bit more... I ALSO have another 40 Meg IDE drive that
>I want to add to the system.  I can connect both drives to the IDE board, but
>the system never will acknowledge the second drive.  I tell SETUP about it 
>(both are 40 Meg type 17s) but get the DISK FAILURE error on boot.  When I
>go into FDISK and try to select the next drive, I get "Unable to access drive
>2" or something like that.

>The drive presently in the system is a Conner CP344.  The one I want to add is
>a Conner CP342.  I think that the problem may be in the jumper settings, because
>the second Conner does not have the jumpers labeled, and there are only three
>compared to the four on the first Conner (marked HSP C/D DSP ACT).  On the
>second Conner, I have determined which jumper to remove so it isn't treated as
>the active drive.  What next?  Does anyone know the settings to help me out?

You will have to set jumpers on the second IDE drive so that it thinks it is
the *second* drive. On your original Conner drive I guess that it would be the
C/D jumper. You will have to find out what it is on the second drive.

>Once that is solved... we are back to the MFM.  Will I be able to drop in an
>MFM controller with the rest of this mess?  This drive is a Seagate ST-251 on
>a Western Digital WD1003WAH controller.

Urk... my information on WD1003-WAH controllers leads me to think that this is
difficult. I got hold of a WD1003-WA2. The WA2 allows the IO ports to be moved.
It doesn't allow the IRQ to be moved (that required surgery). You may be able
to find a controller board that allows both IO ports and IRQ to be moved.

I got the following from simtel (wd.arc in the dskutl directory):

     +--LED------------------------------Drive 2-Drive 1-Control--------+
     |  ++J6   +++W6                     ++J3+++ ++J2++ ++++J1++++      |
     |  ++     123          U3           +++++++ ++++++ ++++++++++      |
     |         +++W4       +++++                                        |
     |         123                                 12                   |
     |                                          W1 ++      W5           |
     |                                      +------+ +--+  1+  +--+     | 
     |                                      | U8   | +U9+  2+  +U12     |
     |      WD1003-WAH                      +------+       3+           |
     +-------------------------------+          +--+                +---+
                                     +----------+  +----------------+
     
     Jumper     Position      Function
     
     W1         No Jumper     Status Read is non-latched. Dynamic drive
                              select; i.e. SELECT = DRIVE BUSY. Used for
                              Compaq 286s.
     
                Jumper        Standard Factory Setting. Status Read is
                              latched. Static drive select (SELECT
                              asserted except during RESET). Used for IBM
                              Personal Computer ATs.
     
     W4         Jumper 2-3    Standard factory setting. Ties firmware 
                              sense bit input high.
                Jumper 1-2    Supports 2 head, 612 cylinder second drive
                              with standard system setup for 4 head, 306
                              cylinder drive.
     
     W5         Jumper 2-3    Standard factory setting.
                Jumper 1-2    Internal signal Power-up circuit controls 
                              WG enable.
     
     W6         Jumper 2-3    Standard factory setting. Ties input high.
                Jumper 1-2    Ties input low. The 35 msec step rate cannot
                              be selected with W6 in this position. 
                              Instead, the 16 msec step rate is selected.

As you can see, there's documented jumper (at least according to this
information) that allows you to change IO addresses.

Assuming you manage to drop the board in, you're going to have another
problem. MSDOS talks to disk drives via the BIOS. Your BIOS probably doesn't
know about secondary disk controller addresses (mine doesn't), thus DOS won't
know about it either. To use the drive under DOS you will have to write a
device driver :-(

In case you're interested, here's what I did:

1. Primary disk is IDE. Inherited another disk ST-506 MFM.
   Problem: Existing controller not compatible.

2. Hunt for a controller. Find a WD1003-WA2.

3. Remove IDE drive and controller. Install WA2 and drive (luckily this
   also drives my floppies). Boot floppies, format and check MFM disk.
   All is ok.

4. Set jumpers on WA2 for secondary IO ports. Re-install IDE drive and
   controller. Machine won't boot. Problem: Clashing IRQs.

5. Make new `finger' on WA2 for IRQ15 [probably voids any warranty :-(] and use
   thin insulating tape to cover IRQ14 `finger'. Join IRQ15 and IRQ14
   `fingers'.

6. Machine boots.

7. Give new drive to Minix :-) [I believe that XENIX will also take secondary
   controllers.]

8. Now I have two drives. One IDE drive on an IDE controller, and the other
   an ST506 drive on WD1003-WA2 strapped for secondary IO addresses. My
   floppies run off the IDE controller (which has a built-in floppy controller).
   I suppose I could run two more floppies off the W1003-WA2 controller also.

>Help... I am so frustrated with all this!  Is there an FTP site with some
>files describing some of the more difficult aspects of hard drive installation?

There is some information in the simtel dskutl directory --- but such technical
information as you require is hard to find (I've tried).

Earl
-- 
Earl Chew, Dept of Computer Science, Monash University, Australia 3168
EMAIL: cechew@bruce.cs.monash.edu.au PHONE: 03 5655447 FAX: 03 5655146
----------------------------------------------------------------------


From inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpl-opus!knotts Mon Jan  7 03:24:25 MET 1991
From: knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts)
Subject: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Date: 2 Jan 91 18:47:31 GMT
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA

I am posting this to possibly save others from repeating the same mistake
that I made.

I bought an IDE disk drive for my AT system from Maxtor (was Miniscribe).
I then proceeded to do a low-level format. Seemed like the thing to do.
Then I found out that these drives are formatted at the factory, and
using standard formatters destroys the defect table. Sure enough, I got
write errors when I tried to use it. The fix is to re-format it using
Maxtor formatting software. This costs $60. 

So... Beware before you do a low-level format on your drives!

tom


From inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!olivea!apple!agate!pasteur!johnm@cory.Berkeley.EDU Mon Jan  7 03:32:46 MET 1991
From: johnm@cory.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Date: 5 Jan 91 09:39:01 GMT

In article <80330006@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com> 
	knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts) writes:

>I am posting this to possibly save others from repeating the same mistake
>that I made.
>
>I bought an IDE disk drive for my AT system from Maxtor (was Miniscribe).
>I then proceeded to do a low-level format. Seemed like the thing to do.
>Then I found out that these drives are formatted at the factory, and
>using standard formatters destroys the defect table. Sure enough, I got
>write errors when I tried to use it. The fix is to re-format it using
>Maxtor formatting software. This costs $60. 
>
>So... Beware before you do a low-level format on your drives!

This sounds like poor design on Maxtor (or Miniscribe's) part.  I
use Conner IDE drives and haven't had any trouble doing low-level
formats.  If they require a special formatting program to do low-
level formats then that should be included when you purchase the
drive.

Good luck,
	John D. Mitchell
	johnm@cory.Berkeley.EDU

#include <std/disclaimer.h>


From inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!wuarchive!usc!ucsd!nosc!crash!pro-dallas.cts.com!kms Mon Jan  7 03:38:21 MET 1991
From: kms@pro-dallas.cts.com (Kevin M. Smallwood)
Subject: Re: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Date: 6 Jan 91 04:57:30 GMT

In-Reply-To: message from knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com

Tom,

        Did your instructions that came with the drive mention that a
low-level format would blow your defect table? If not, I'd make Maxtor foot
the $60.00 for the Maxtor software. Why pay for "their" mistake?


 ____________________________________________________________________________
|                                             |                              |
| ProLine  :        pro-dallas!kms            | You must decide who you will |
| Internet :        kms@pro-dallas.cts.com    | BE before you can know what  |
| UUCP     :        crash!pro-dallas!kms      | to DO. Then you will be able |
| AT&T     :        (214) 596-1663 (modem)    | to HAVE.                     |
| Fax      :        (214) 612-1701            |              -Unknown        |
|_____________________________________________|______________________________|


From chorus!inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!apple!julius.cs.uiuc.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpl-opus!knotts 8 Jan 91 04:25:40 GMT   
From: knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Date: 8 Jan 91 04:25:40 GMT
References: <80330006@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com>
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA


>This sounds like poor design on Maxtor (or Miniscribe's) part.  I
>use Conner IDE drives and haven't had any trouble doing low-level
>formats.  If they require a special formatting program to do low-
>level formats then that should be included when you purchase the
>drive.

Yes, it does require a special formatter that I had to buy from Maxtor
(to fix it). Normally one doesn't have to do a format, as they come
pre-formatted (although someone sent me email letting me know that he
has a need to do low-level formats after disks get trashed by viruses).

I was under the impression that the special formatting software was for
all IDE drives. Are you sure that your drives are formatted OK? When I
did the format with the standard low-level formatter, it formatted, and
verified OK. Fdisk and high-level formatting worked as well. But because
the location of the bad sectors of the drive were lost, eventually I
got a fatal read/write error.

I hope your disk is OK. In the meantime, does anyone know if this is a
problem with all IDE drives, or just Maxtor/Miniscribe? The low-level
formatting software I used was from Seagate (which I thought at the time
was the standard all-in-one formatter). Does each drive require its own
special formatter, or is there a standard formatter that everyone uses?

thanks,

tom


From chorus!inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!jarthur!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpfcso!pgt@hpfcso.HP.COM 9 Jan 91 01:05:15 GMT   
From: pgt@hpfcso.HP.COM (Paul G. Tobin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Date: 9 Jan 91 01:05:15 GMT
References: <80330006@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com>
Organization: Hewlett-Packard, Fort Collins, CO, USA

* This sounds like poor design on Maxtor (or Miniscribe's) part.  I
* use Conner IDE drives and haven't had any trouble doing low-level
* formats.  If they require a special formatting program to do low-
* level formats then that should be included when you purchase the
* drive.

Interesting - the documentation for my Connor 3104 states specifically
that Connor IDE drives should not be low level formatted.  I'm not
taking any chances..

		Paul Tobin


From chorus!inria!cenaath.cena.dgac.fr!corton!mcsun!uunet!bellcore!att!pacbell.com!ucsd!nosc!crash!pnet01!jca 10 Jan 91 21:36:05 GMT   
From: jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: mfm+ide drive in 1 computer.
Date: 10 Jan 91 21:36:05 GMT
Sender: root@crash.cts.com
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA

gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) writes:
>how can i get an mbm and an ide drive to work with msdos in the same 
>computer? (simultaneously, i dont want to open up the computer and take out
>and trade cards to use both drives.). is there a free device driver
>somewhere? is there a pay for device driver somewhere? can other versions
>of dos use both drives with out problem?

You can't do it easily.  ST412/506 MFM and IDE use the same port address and
IRQ.  You could try putting the ST412/506 MFM controller at the secondary port
address and a different IRQ, but then your BIOS wouldn't be aware of it.  Only
OS'es that support a secondary ST412/506 controller to my knowledge are Unix
based.

Basically, it's more trouble that it's worth for DOS.

     // JCA

 /*
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 ** Flames  : /dev/null                     | What to buy?
 ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil     | EISA or MCA?
 ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com            | When will the bus wars end?
 ** UUCP    : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hp-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 */


From inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!samsung!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!umriscc!mcs213a.cs.umr.edu!bkirby Thu Jan 17 01:15:08 MET 1991
From: bkirby@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Bill Kirby)
Subject: Re: mfm+ide drive in 1 computer.
Date: 12 Jan 91 19:56:26 GMT
Organization: University of Missouri - Rolla

In article <6833@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
>gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) writes:
>>
>>  [question about ide coexisting with mfm]
>
>You can't do it easily.  ST412/506 MFM and IDE use the same port address and
>IRQ.  You could try putting the ST412/506 MFM controller at the secondary port
>address and a different IRQ, but then your BIOS wouldn't be aware of it.  Only
>OS'es that support a secondary ST412/506 controller to my knowledge are Unix
>based.
>
>Basically, it's more trouble that it's worth for DOS.
>

I'm confused.  I've called CompuAdd (i own a compuadd floppy/harddrive 
controller), and USA Flex (I was going to buy an IDE drive from them)
and they both claim that the controllers will not interfere with each
other.  I specifically told the USA Flex tech. guy that I had heard
of I/O and IRQ conflicts, but he assured me that this wouldn't be a 
problem.

Right now, my only option for a second hard drive must be 3.5"
form factor.  And the cheapest drives i've found are IDE.

If I decide to get rid of my current drive (ST-225) and go with the 
IDE by itself, can I still use my CompuAdd controller to control
my floppy drives?  If not, what do I do?

Also, does the IDE drive require any special device driver?

Thanks,

+--------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+
|       Bill Kirby         |  Internet:  bkirby@cs.umr.edu                 |
|  Computer Science Dept.  |    Bitnet:  bkirby%cs.umr.edu@umrvmb.bitnet   |
| University of MO - Rolla |      UUCP:  ...!uunet!cs.umr.edu!bkirby       |
|    Rolla, MO  65401      |                                               |
+--------------------------+-----------------------------------------------+


From inria!corton!mcsun!sunic!ugle.unit.no!ugle!thoger Thu Jan 17 01:17:04 MET 1991
From: thoger@solan.unit.no (Terje Th|gersen)
Subject: Re: mfm+ide drive in 1 computer.
Date: 13 Jan 91 08:03:40 GMT
Organization: The Norwegian Institute of Technology

In article <1928@umriscc.isc.umr.edu> bkirby@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Bill Kirby) writes:
   In article <6833@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
   >gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) writes:
   >>
   >>  [question about ide coexisting with mfm]
   >
   >You can't do it easily.  ST412/506 MFM and IDE use the same port address and
   >IRQ.  You could try putting the ST412/506 MFM controller at the secondary port
   >address and a different IRQ, but then your BIOS wouldn't be aware of it.  Only
   >OS'es that support a secondary ST412/506 controller to my knowledge are Unix
   >based.
   >
   >Basically, it's more trouble that it's worth for DOS.
   >

>   I'm confused.  I've called CompuAdd (i own a compuadd floppy/harddrive 
>   controller), and USA Flex (I was going to buy an IDE drive from them)
>   and they both claim that the controllers will not interfere with each
>   other.  I specifically told the USA Flex tech. guy that I had heard
>   of I/O and IRQ conflicts, but he assured me that this wouldn't be a 
>   problem.

On AT / 386's there are 2 different type of PC-HD controller interfaces,
as far as I've been able to figure out. The first type is known as a 
WD1003 type interface. Under this system, most of the HD-controlling is
done by the host computer. Most ST506/412 and IDE controllers are of this
type.

The second system is a type where the controller comes with it's own BIOS
onboard. In this system, the BIOS takes over most of the 'job' itself.
Under this system you do NOT tell your AT that it has a HD installed, as
the on-board BIOS does all the initializing etc. that is necessary.
Most Hardcards are of this type, as is my Seagate ST02 SCSI-controller.
I'm pretty sure that HD-controllers meant to be installed in a XT are 
of this type, too

Now, under DOS, I *know* you can have one of each type installed, as I have
done this. I've tried ST506 + Hardcard, ST506 + ST02 SCSI and IDE + ST02.

But, having two of the first kind is rather difficult under DOS, as previous
posters have noted. (I've never tried two BIOS-equipped ones at the same
time.. Hm.. gotta test that someday..)

So, what the guy from USA Flex *might* be trying to tell you, is that their
IDE controller has onboard BIOS, and therefore can peacefully coexist with
a controller using the WD1003-type interface. I say *might*, as I've never
heard of a IDE-type controller that is of the second type.

>   If I decide to get rid of my current drive (ST-225) and go with the 
>   IDE by itself, can I still use my CompuAdd controller to control
>   my floppy drives?  If not, what do I do?

Yes, if you get a IDE controller without floppy support. But, at the current
prices of USD 40-50 for both FDC-equipped IDE controllers and the ones
without floppy-support, you might as well get the one with the FDC, and 
free up a slot.

>   Also, does the IDE drive require any special device driver?

No, it shouldn't. The only controllers I've heard of that use drivers under
DOS are the more advanced SCSI-controllers, that can do up to 7 drives etc.

>  Thanks,
>   |       Bill Kirby         |  Internet:  bkirby@cs.umr.edu              |

Just my little USD 0.02 worth etc..

  -Terje

--
____________________________________________________________________________
thoger@solan.unit.no       |                 Institute of Physical Chemistry
THOGER AT NORUNIT.BITNET   | Div. of Computer Assisted Instrumental Analysis
                           |               Norwegian Institute of Technology


From inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!samsung!usc!ucselx!crash!pnet01!jca Thu Jan 17 01:17:45 MET 1991
From: jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Subject: Re: mfm+ide drive in 1 computer.
Date: 13 Jan 91 17:16:02 GMT
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA

bkirby@mcs213a.cs.umr.edu (Bill Kirby) writes:
>In article <6833@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:
>I'm confused.  I've called CompuAdd (i own a compuadd floppy/harddrive 
>controller), and USA Flex (I was going to buy an IDE drive from them)
>and they both claim that the controllers will not interfere with each
>other.  I specifically told the USA Flex tech. guy that I had heard
>of I/O and IRQ conflicts, but he assured me that this wouldn't be a 
>problem.

Either the person at CompuAdd needs a laxative or their controller isn't a
standard ST412/506 MFM controller (standard being that it behaves like a
WD1003).

>Right now, my only option for a second hard drive must be 3.5"
>form factor.  And the cheapest drives i've found are IDE.
>
>If I decide to get rid of my current drive (ST-225) and go with the 
>IDE by itself, can I still use my CompuAdd controller to control
>my floppy drives?  If not, what do I do?

You can if you switch the port address on the ST412/506 MFM controller to its
secondary port address and not hook a hard drive to it.  Very few ST412/506
MFM controllers support IRQ switching.  Best bet would be to get an IDE
adaptor with a floppy port on it and get rid of the CompuAdd controller
completely.

>Also, does the IDE drive require any special device driver?

No, that's the beauty of IDE.  It looks like an ST412/506 drive to your BIOS.

     // JCA

 /*
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 ** Flames  : /dev/null                     | What to buy?
 ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil     | EISA or MCA?
 ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com            | When will the bus wars end?
 ** UUCP    : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hp-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 */


From chorus!inria!corton!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!dali.cs.montana.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!crash!pnet01!jca 16 Jan 91 21:16:01 GMT   
From: jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: MOre than two fixed disks?
Date: 16 Jan 91 21:16:01 GMT
Sender: root@crash.cts.com
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA

mcl9337@harpo.tamu.edu (LOWE, MARK CHRISTOPHER) writes:
>I have a 386 clone with Phoenix BIOS.  We already have two IDE drives installed
>and would like another.  Of course, the BIOS will only recognize two fixed
>disks.  Is there a driver of some sort that will allow me to have more than
>two?  Or is there a simpler method that I'm just not aware of??

Not with IDE.  Unless someone has developed an IDE adaptor with an on-board
BIOS that will allow MS-DOS to recognize the adaptor at a secondary port
address and IRQ.

The current implementation of IDE calls only for a single adaptor that handles
only two hard drives; a master and slave.

     // JCA

 /*
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 ** Flames  : /dev/null                     | What to buy?
 ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil     | EISA or MCA?
 ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com            | When will the bus wars end?
 ** UUCP    : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hp-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 */


From chorus!inria!corton!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!unix.cis.pitt.edu!dsinc!netnews.upenn.edu!vax1.cc.lehigh.edu!lehi3b15!tbrown 22 Jan 91 04:02:29 GMT   
From: tbrown@lehi3b15.csee.Lehigh.EDU (Thomas Brown [901015])
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Summary: unless you have to
Date: 22 Jan 91 04:02:29 GMT
References: <80330006@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com> <16550002@hpfcso.HP.COM>
Reply-To: tbrown@lehi3b15.csee.Lehigh.EDU (Thomas Brown [901015])
Organization: CSEE Dept. Lehigh University, Bethlehem, PA

IDE drives (typically) come pre-low-level-formatted from the factory
and, therefore, only require partitioning and high-level formatting.
However, a (very small) few from certain manufacturers may have not
been low-leveled or may have lost format due to magnetic fields in
shipment.  There is *no* danger in low-level formatting these drives
provided you do it correctly.  There are versions of Disk Manager for
IDE drives which work very well.  Just be sure the correct parameters
(and, optionally, sector translation scheme) are used and all will be
well.

Regards,
Tom
--=--
Thomas Brown, KA2UGQ          BITNET: twb0@lehigh.bitnet
Lehigh University UC Box 855    ARPA: tbrown@lehi3b15.csee.Lehigh.EDU
Bethlehem, PA  18015            UUCP: ..!uunet!twb0@lehigh.bitnet
(215) 758-0093                 AX.25: ka2ugq@ka2ugq.nj.usa.na

'You can't have everything...where would you put it?' -S.W.


From chorus!inria!nowhere!corton!mcsun!uunet!lll-winken!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hplabs!hpl-opus!knotts 22 Jan 91 19:03:06 GMT   
From: knotts@hpl-opus.hpl.hp.com (Tom Knotts)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: Re: Don't low-level format an IDE drive
Date: 22 Jan 91 19:03:06 GMT
References: <1354@lehi3b15.csee.Lehigh.EDU>
Organization: HP Labs, High Speed Electronics Dept., Palo Alto, CA


>IDE drives (typically) come pre-low-level-formatted from the factory
>and, therefore, only require partitioning and high-level formatting.
>However, a (very small) few from certain manufacturers may have not
>been low-leveled or may have lost format due to magnetic fields in
>shipment.  There is *no* danger in low-level formatting these drives
>provided you do it correctly.  There are versions of Disk Manager for
>IDE drives which work very well.  Just be sure the correct parameters
>(and, optionally, sector translation scheme) are used and all will be
>well.

Yes, I re-formatted my IDE drive with software from Maxtor. In the
configuration menu, I was able to choose the specific drive that I had.
This is a real confidence booster. On the down side, they stuck me for
$50 for the software. They told me that a lot of people make the same
mistake that I made, and they are in the process of adding a big warning
label on the drive stating not to perform a low-level format. 

Besides mag. fields in transit, it can be necessary to re-format a
drive that was corrupted by a virus.

tom


From chorus!inria!nowhere!corton!mcsun!uunet!olivea!decwrl!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!dsac.dla.mil!dsacg3.dsac.dla.mil!dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil!nfs0294 24 Jan 91 18:00:51 GMT   
From: nfs0294@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil (Glen Midkiff)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: IDE Data Transfer Rates
Keywords: IDE
Date: 24 Jan 91 18:00:51 GMT
Organization: Defense Logistics Agency Systems Automation Center, Columbus

I have IDE drives installed in both a 286/12 and a 386SX/16 system.  The 
drive is a Maxtor 8051A, 42meg, 28ms access time.  According to Coretest,
Checkit, QAplus, etc. the data transfer rate appears to be way below what
I would expect.  Coretest shows 362kb.  A MFM 1:1 drive gives a transfer     
rate of around 450kb and a RLL 1:1 about 698kb.  

So, do I have something wrong or is it a problem with the programs that
measure transfer rates that they can't handle IDE drives?

BTW, I am using a 16bit IDE interface card.    
Either send email (gmidkiff@dsac.dla.mil) or post here if you have any
input.
-- 
 |-----------------------------------------------------------------------|
 |Glen Midkiff   osu-cis!dsac!gmidkiff                                   |
 |From the Internet: gmidkiff@dsac.dla.mil                               |
 |Phone: (614)-238-9643 @DLA, Systems Automation Center, Columbus, Oh.   |



From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!primerd!hammer!cummings 30 Jan 91 22:21:11 GMT   
From: cummings@hammer.Prime.COM (Kevin Cummings)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Dilswitch setting of Hard Disk HH-825 of Micro Sience wanted
Keywords: Info about the settings of the 10 dilswitches wanted
Date: 30 Jan 91 22:21:11 GMT
References: <pb.664789443@atperf.idca.tds.philips.nl>
Reply-To: cummings@hammer.Prime.COM (Kevin Cummings)
Organization: Prime Computer R&D
Nntp-Posting-Host: hammer
To: pb@idca.tds.philips.nl

In article <pb.664789443@atperf.idca.tds.philips.nl>
pb@idca.tds.philips.nl (Peter Brouwer) writes:
>I have I 20Mb hard disk from MicroSience type HH-825 with no
documentation.
>At the rear of the disk are 10 dilswitches. Who can give me info about
the
>meaning of these switches?
>Please reply via E-mail.
>
>
>--
>#  Peter Brouwer,                | Philips Information Systems,        
#
>#  NET  : pb@idca.tds.philips.nl | Department P9000-i Building V2,     
#
>#  UUCP : ....!mcsun!philapd!pb  | P.O.Box 245,7300AE Apeldoorn,The
Netherlands#
>#  PHONE:ext [+31] [0]55 432992, | FAX  :ext [+31] [0]55 433488        
#

I have a copy of a spec sheet for MicroScience drives.  (Just purchased
an
HH-1090 for myself).  It describes the Drive Select Switch/Jumper
Settings
for the following disk drive series:  1xxx, 2xxx, 4xxx, 5xxx, 6xxx, and
7xxx
drives.  (Yeah, and you said you had an HH-825).

1xxx
	10 position DIP switch.
	S1 - Drive Select 1
	S2 - Drive Select 2
	S3 - Drive Select 3
	S4 - Drive Select 4
  S5 - S10 - Termination (On = enable, Off = disable)

2xxx
	2 position DIP switch SW1
	S1 - Sectors per Track (On = 33 SPT, Off = 35 SPT)
	S2 - Write Protect

	10 position DIP switch SW2
   S1 - S7 - Drive Select 1-7
	S8 - Soft/Hard Sectored (On = soft, Off = hard)
  S9 - S10 - Termination (On = enable, Off = disable)

	10 position DIP switch SW3
  S1 - S10 - TYermination (On = enable, Off = disable)

4xxx
	4 jumpers
	DS0 - Device Select 0
	DS1 - Device Select 1
	DS2 - Device Select 2
	DS3 - Device Select 3

5xxx
	7 jumper pairs
	J12 - Termination
	J78 - High order Device Select  \
	J56 - Mid order Device Select	 > Treat as one octal digit?
	J34 - Low order Device Select   /
      J1112 - High Sectors per Track bit \ (off off = 36, off on = 35, 
      J0910 - Low  Sectors per Track bit /  on  off = 34, on  on = 34)
      J1314 - Write Protect

6xxx
	6 position DIP switch
      S1-S3 - Device Select bits (Octal digit 0-7)
      S4-S6 - unused

7xxx
	8 position DIP switch
      S1-S2 - Device Select 0
      S3-S6 - Unused
      S7-S8 - Device Select 1

I hope this is helpful!  Let me know if I need to interpret any of the
badly
copied drawings for you!  And good luck getting your drive configured.

--
=================================================================
Kevin J. Cummings                       Prime Computer Inc.
20 Briarwood Road                       500 Old Connecticut Path
Framingham, Mass.                       Framingham, Mass.

InterNet:  cummings@primerd.Prime.COM
UUCP:      {uunet, csnet-relay}!primerd.Prime.COM!cummings

Std. Disclaimer: "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration,
		  I've come to the conclusion that your new
		  defense system SUCKS..."   --  War Games
=================================================================



From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!sun-barr!newstop!sun!amdcad!brahms!lpdjb 7 Feb 91 21:59:34 GMT   
From: lpdjb@brahms.amd.com (Jerry Bemis)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE questions
Date: 7 Feb 91 21:59:34 GMT
References: <1991Feb6.140303.1@ssdvx2.mdcbbs.com>
Sender: usenet@amd.com (NNTP Posting)
Organization: Advanced Micro Devices; Sunnyvale, CA

In article <1991Feb6.140303.1@ssdvx2.mdcbbs.com> teague@ssdvx2.mdcbbs.com (Chris Teague) writes:
>Does anyone know what the drive limit is for an IDE interface card.  All of the
>IDE cables I have seen only have one drive connector.  Is it possible to put
>two or more hard drives on one interface card, or would they each need an
>interface card? 
Yes you can install two (2) IDE drives with one interface card.
A second connerctor can be put on the original cable.  Mine wasn't long enough 
so I made my own.  
NOW FOR THE HARD PART 
IDE drives come setup for single drive operation.  A jumper(s) needs to be 
changed on both drives.  Why is this hard?  The store I bought the second
drive from was not able to tell me what jumpers to change!  They told me 
several incorrect ways--of which one shorted my power supply.
I called the manufacturer. Then it was easy.
Set one to be drive 1 (some call it A). The other to be drive 2(dito B).

The drives are then:

C: 	drive 1  segment 1
D: 	drive 2  segment 1
E: 	drive 1  segment 2
F: 	drive 2  segment 2 
	
G:	ram drive
BE SURE TO RUN FDISK AND SETUP 
>
>Chris Teague

 LPDJB@brahms.amd.com                     
 Jerry Bemis  Sunnyvale, CA (408) 749-3327  (800) 538-8450 x43327 
 AMD, POB 3453 - 45, Sunnyvale CA 94086-3000
from comuserve >INTERNET LPDJB@brahms.amd.com (or76326,2233--I never read it $k)


From chorus!inria!nowhere!corton!mcsun!uunet!munnari.oz.au!uhccux!ames!ncar!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gwoho 26 Jan 91 07:17:26 GMT   
From: gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: IDE Data Transfer Rates
Keywords: IDE
Date: 26 Jan 91 07:17:26 GMT
References: <2891@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil>
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

nfs0294@dsacg2.dsac.dla.mil (Glen Midkiff) writes:

>I have IDE drives installed in both a 286/12 and a 386SX/16 system.  The 
>drive is a Maxtor 8051A, 42meg, 28ms access time.  According to Coretest,
>Checkit, QAplus, etc. the data transfer rate appears to be way below what
>I would expect.  Coretest shows 362kb.  A MFM 1:1 drive gives a transfer     
>rate of around 450kb and a RLL 1:1 about 698kb.  

>So, do I have something wrong or is it a problem with the programs that
>measure transfer rates that they can't handle IDE drives?

maybe the controllers are capable of speeds like 450kb or 698kb, but
its not the controiller that determines the speed---its the drive.
if a drive spins at 60 times a second, reads only one head at a time,
has say 1k per track, it will only transfer 60k per second.
maybe the drive spins slowly, as cheap drives like mine do, so it does
not transfer much quickly.
mines about 250k/sec, because it spins slowly and has not many bytes per
track, can only read one head at a time.
gwoho liu.


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!uhura.cc.rochester.edu!rochester!pt.cs.cmu.edu!o.gp.cs.cmu.edu!andrew.cmu.edu!jc58+ 10 Feb 91 00:48:27 GMT   
From: jc58+@andrew.cmu.edu (Johnny J. Chin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE HDs > 177MB
Date: 10 Feb 91 00:48:27 GMT
References: <26812@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>
Organization: Carnegie Mellon, Pittsburgh, PA
In-Reply-To: <26812@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>

In my opinion, from a few years of experience with IDEs:

Conner is "cream of the crop" on all of their IDE drives except the 20MB.
I have several of these (including 8 of the 208MB one) running at various
client sites.  As for the 8 208MB IDE Conners, they are in a Compaq SystemPro
running all day long, 7-days a week for the past 6 months.  No problems.  Not
to mention, this of course is a server.

MiniScribe ... in a worse I've used.  They work most of the time as a single
drive, but if you daisy-chain two of them, they fail intermittantely.

Seagate ... if all of you don't know, is one of the BIGGEST hard drive
manufacturer.  They brought out Imprimis (which use to be CDC).  And I also
heard that they took over Microscience.  In general, Seagate is good for the
price.  The WREN series (use to Imprimis) is very good.  The original
Seagate is average, not as great.


     __________           Carnegie Mellon University             ___
    /          \                                            /   /    /_/ / /\/
   _/  /   /   / "Happy Computing ..."                   __/.  /__  / / / / /
  /     /     /     -- Computer Dr.
 /           /                          Internet: Johnny.J.Chin@andrew.cmu.edu
/  -------  /   4730 Centre Ave. #412   BITnet:   jc58@andrew
\__________/    Pittsburgh, PA  15213   UUCP:    ...!uunet!andrew.cmu.edu!jc58


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!samsung!rex!uflorida!reef.cis.ufl.edu!jdb 10 Feb 91 22:05:43 GMT   
From: jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Conner drives (was RE: Drives > 177MB)
Date: 10 Feb 91 22:05:43 GMT
Organization: UF CIS Dept.


Summary of drives as follows:

Seagate:  

	Price: average
	Speed: average
	Reliability: average
	Heat and power consumption: average
	Value: average
	
Conner:

	Price:  High
	Speed:	above average
	Reliability: Excellent
	Heat and Power Consumption: Excellent
	Value:	Good
	
Maxtor:

	Price: High
	Speed: Average
	Reliability: Average
	Heat and PC: Average
	Value: Below Average
	
I got very high praise for the quiet nature and low heat of the Conner
drives, the fact that Conner OEMS to COMPAQ, Conner drives are very
reliable, and they work well.

Oh, just FYI, I got several notes that Miniscribes SUCK....but I cannot
testify to that other than I have returned 8 Blue Chip Miniscribe 40MB
drives in the past year while working at a computer store.

Brian


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!ub!acsu.buffalo.edu 11 Feb 91 05:44:31 GMT   
From: jones@acsu.buffalo.edu (terry a jones)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Conner drives (was RE: Drives > 177MB)
Date: 11 Feb 91 05:44:31 GMT
Organization: SUNY Buffalo

In article <26829@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes:
>
>Summary of drives as follows:
>
[Stuff Deleted]
>Conner:
>
>	Price:  High
>	Speed:	above average
>	Reliability: Excellent
>	Heat and Power Consumption: Excellent
>	Value:	Good
>	
	I think I would qualify the Conner as a LOW cost drive...certainly
not high.  Recent prices on a Conner CP-3200 200Meg SCSI drive are around
$785.00.  Figure it out in dollars/Meg and they look real competitive.  From
what I can see they are fairly good performers too.

>I got very high praise for the quiet nature and low heat of the Conner
>drives, the fact that Conner OEMS to COMPAQ, Conner drives are very
>reliable, and they work well.


	They also OEM for DEC on their MicroVAX series of SCSI drives.  I
think DEC's RZ-23 is actually a Conner CP-3100.

>Oh, just FYI, I got several notes that Miniscribes SUCK....but I cannot
>testify to that other than I have returned 8 Blue Chip Miniscribe 40MB
>drives in the past year while working at a computer store.

	Yeah, I think Miniscribe went belly up.  You can still find a lot
of their drives on the market.  I'm not sure how well supported they are 
at the moment.

-- 
Terry Jones   				{rutgers,uunet}!acsu.buffalo.edu!jones
SUNY at Buffalo ECE Dept.		  or: rutgers!ub!jones

You are in a maze of twisty little compiler features, all different.


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!infonode!lee 11 Feb 91 15:28:24 GMT   
From: lee@infonode.ingr.com (Lee McCain)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: IDE Transfer Rates
Date: 11 Feb 91 15:28:24 GMT
Organization: Intergraph Corp. Huntsville, AL

I have a Seagate ST1144A disk drive drive by an IDE 16-bit 1:1 interleave
controller.  This drive is in a 386-33mhz w/64k cache machine.  The bus is
running at 10mhz.

The drive specifications state that the data transfer rate is something like
1.6mg/sec.  However, running the hard drive benchmarks from within Check-It,
a 594.6K/sec transfer rate is shown.

Does anyone out there known of a reason why I can't seen to get the 1.6mb/sec
or so transfer rates?

Thanks in advance.


Lee McCain
...!uunet!ingr!se_bbs!lee

      --or--

lee@ingr.com


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!pmafire!uudell!hotwheel!timd 12 Feb 91 14:56:26 GMT   
From: timd@hotwheel.dell.com (Tim Deagan)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 12 Feb 91 14:56:26 GMT
Organization: Dell Computer Corp.

In article <1991Feb11.205602.6901@nntp-server.caltech.edu>,
gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu) writes:
> how do i change the interleave on an ide drive? ordinary interleaver
> programs, of course, cant do it. they cant do scsi either, but i
> know its possable on scsi, because i've done it.
> is it also possable on ide?
> also how do i add a block to the block substitution table?
> how do i low level format it? (a lot of programs think that they low
> level format it, but they actually dont)
> thank you in advance.
> gwoho liu.

	The best answer is YOU DON'T!  Definetly don't low-level your
	IDE drive.  Seagate and Conner won't even guarantee they can do
	it at the factory, if you manage to do it yourself you'll just
	end up with a very expensive paper weight.  As far as the interleave,
	it's set for the drive.  Changing it won't increase performance, if
	you change it from 3:1 to 1:1 or 2:1 you'll end up degrading 
	performance by requiring the drive to make an entire pass around
	the cylinder to get to the next sector.  IDE's is what they is and
	they ain't what they ain't.  :-)


------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------"Wake up!  Wake up!" - Spike Lee ---------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------
                         Rev. Tim Deagan
                     timd@hotwheel.dell.com
                     timd@twaddle.dell.com


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!quimby 13 Feb 91 07:05:54 GMT   
From: quimby@madoka.its.rpi.edu (Tom Stewart)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 13 Feb 91 07:05:54 GMT
References: <1991Feb11.205602.6901@nntp-server.caltech.edu> <15082@uudell.dell.com>
Nntp-Posting-Host: madoka.its.rpi.edu

timd@hotwheel.dell.com (Tim Deagan) writes:

>	The best answer is YOU DON'T!  Definetly don't low-level your
>	IDE drive.  Seagate and Conner won't even guarantee they can do
>	it at the factory, if you manage to do it yourself you'll just
>	end up with a very expensive paper weight.  As far as the interleave,
>	it's set for the drive.  Changing it won't increase performance, if
>	you change it from 3:1 to 1:1 or 2:1 you'll end up degrading 
>	performance by requiring the drive to make an entire pass around
>	the cylinder to get to the next sector.  IDE's is what they is and
>	they ain't what they ain't.  :-)

Sooner or later, many IDE's will either need re-low-leveling, or
replacement.  I, for one, would rather re-format.  The new version
of Seagate's Disk Manager (4.02?) is supposed to allow formatting
IDE's, but I haven't tried it yet.
  
Here are a couple of valid reason's why low-level is needed:
  
    1.  'Minor' crash, causing loss of data and format.
  
    2.  User accidentally or intentionally runs a low-level format
        program.  (Trojan horse, confused user, upset employee, etc)
  
    3.  After 5-10 years, the format sometimes is "lost".  (Maybe
        some of the newer drives will actually last this long.)
  
Quimby
  
(mailer disfunctional, replies to: quimby@mts.rpi.edu, quimby@rpitsmts.bitnet)



From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!sigma 14 Feb 91 02:21:05 GMT   
From: sigma@jec302.its.rpi.edu (Kevin J Martin)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 14 Feb 91 02:21:05 GMT

quimby@madoka.its.rpi.edu (Tom Stewart) writes:
>Sooner or later, many IDE's will either need re-low-leveling, or
>replacement.  I, for one, would rather re-format.  The new version
>of Seagate's Disk Manager (4.02?) is supposed to allow formatting
>IDE's, but I haven't tried it yet.
>  
I've seen Version 4.3 of Disk Manager for RLL drives, but not really used
it.  I'm very concerned about the question of reformatting IDE drives,
however - I'm not too pleased to hear that if something goes wrong, Conner
is going to say, "Sorry, you're screwed."  Can anyone shed more light on
this problem?

-- 
Kevin Martin
sigma@rpi.edu


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!mitel!testeng1!huis 15 Feb 91 18:34:14 GMT   
From: huis@testeng1.misemi (Stephen Hui)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 15 Feb 91 18:34:14 GMT
Organization: Mitel CAE Services


	You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software.
I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format
my ST-157A. However, IDE is almost the same as RLL drive and interleave is set
to 1:1 already. If you change the interleave factor then all you will get is
a poorer Xfer rate drive. Also, all IDE drives are pre-low level formatted
by the maker with interleave 1:1, that's why nobody would do a low level
format.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Stephen Hui                     uunet!mitel!testeng1!huis
Mitel Corporation               Tel: (613) 592-5660 X4959
Kanata, Ontario, CANADA         Fax: (613) 592-4784


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!software.mitel.com!wood!wood 16 Feb 91 00:15:58 GMT   
From: wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 16 Feb 91 00:15:58 GMT
Organization: Public Switching, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario, Canada

In article <6556@testeng1.misemi> huis@testeng1.misemi (Stephen Hui) writes:

>	   You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software.
>  I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format
>   my ST-157A. 

 DO NOT LOW LEVEL FORMAT YOUR IDE DRIVE!!!!  I have a SEAGATE 1144 that
looks real nice sitting in a box ready for return to dealer. The dealer
suggested that I take the lattest release of Disk Manager 4.3 and let it 
install my drive. It let me do a low level format of the disk (error in 
communication with dealer) and since then the drive will not boot my system.

After phone calls with seagate, it was determined that the low level format
has disstroyed the bad sector map in the disk (notice how there is no bad
sector list on the IDE drives ) Just so happens (I guess) that one of the bad
sectors in my drive was an important one :-)

However, to take some of the scare out; I also have an older IDE dirve that
I did a low level format on and it still works fine. (But never again will
I do that)

...Dale Wood
wood@Mitel.Software.COM


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!shelby!msi.umn.edu!noc.MR.NET!nic.stolaf.edu!uafhp!mamos 16 Feb 91 19:29:32 GMT   
From: mamos@uafhp.uark.edu (Mark _E_ Amos)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 16 Feb 91 19:29:32 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas, Fayetteville

wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood) writes:

>After phone calls with seagate, it was determined that the low level format
>has disstroyed the bad sector map in the disk (notice how there is no bad
>sector list on the IDE drives ) Just so happens (I guess) that one of the bad
>sectors in my drive was an important one :-)

Just a note which might be of interest: Last summer I put together 16 AT class
machines with MiniScribe 3.5" 40Meg IDE drives, and every one of them came with
a bad sector map: 2 decals (1 presumably to stick on the drive) AND a dot
matrix printout of the bad sector test results - apparently a report sheet from
the test program itself...

I mentioned this because all this hulabuloo over IDE drives is getting rather 
confusing, and after talking to Miniscribe about the drives I worked with, I
have come to the (obvious?) conclusion that IDE drives differ widely between
manufacturers.  I know hard drives have always differed between makers, but
what I mean is the core implementation and design of the actual IDE board
itself, in addition to the mechanical differences.  Correct me if I'm wrong,
but I understand EVERYTHING electronically is INTEGRATED into the drive itself,
with the exception of the "glue" chips (count 'em on one hand) that buffer the
PC bus.  To me, this means the manufacturer can do almost anything they want
to implement the actual controller.  Further, to say "My motherboard has a
built in IDE controller" would be a bad misnomer - more correct is "My mother-
board has a built in IDE drive interface (less than 10 standard logic parts).

The conclusion I have for all this is it makes a BIG difference who you get
your IDE drive from as to whether or not you can low-level format, and how
reliable the thing is generally...  For instance, I have heard alot of
complaints about Seagate IDEs, and I personally have experience with Miniscribe
and their hot running, low MTBF IDE drive; I own a Conner 3184 82Meg, however,
and it is the fastest, quetiest, coolest running hard drive I have seen on a 
PC (this one is a 386-25), and I have had no trouble whatever from it.  In
other words, if I were going to buy another IDE, it would be a Conner. Period.

Just my observations. Please correct if you have seen otherwise.


==============================================================================
  Mark _E_ Amos        | University of Arkansas Computer Science Engineering
  mamos@uafhp.uark.edu | 
  mea1@engr.uark.edu   | (emphasise the Computer Engineering please)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Man's mind, when stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original
 dimension."				              -Oliver Wendell Holmes
==============================================================================


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!caen!uflorida!travis!hardy!leoh 17 Feb 91 14:00:22 GMT   
From: leoh@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Leo Hinds)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 17 Feb 91 14:00:22 GMT
Organization: Harris Computer Systems, Ft. Lauderdale, FL

In article <WOOD.91Feb15191558@wood.Software.Mitel.COM> wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood) writes:
> DO NOT LOW LEVEL FORMAT YOUR IDE DRIVE!!!!  I have a SEAGATE 1144 that

I have seen this "warning" many times & understand why, *but* what 
specifically about an ide makes it immune to the problems seen by many 
other drives that periodically benefit from the likes of spinrite to 
"re-align" drifted heads (or something to that effect)? 

And what are we poor souls to do in that case? ... I am not looking @ 
modifying the interleave, but I do need a way to test/reformat non 
destructively a non-new drive (that is currently displaying errors) normally 
corrected with spinrite.


leoh@hdw.csd.harris.com         	Leo Hinds       	(305)973-5229
Gfx ... gfx ... :-) whfg orpnhfr V "ebg"grq zl fvtangher svyr lbh guvax V nz n
creireg ?!!!!!!? ... znlor arkg gvzr


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!samsung!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!dali.cs.montana.edu!milton!sumax!ole!ray 16 Feb 91 22:39:20 GMT   
From: ray@ole.UUCP (Ray Berry)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Conner 500meg IDE $800-- Rumor or Fact??
Date: 16 Feb 91 22:39:20 GMT
Organization: Seattle Silicon Corp., Bellevue, WA.

goat@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Glendower, goat of goats) writes:

>...I keep hearing about how Connor Peripherals will unleash a (roughly) 500
>megabyte IDE drive (3 1/2 inch?) for the same price as their comparable
>200 megabyte drive... around 800 dollars. That's only $1.60 per meg!!!!!

	This drive was announced at Comdex.  It does not yet seem to have made
its way into distribution.  (It may not be shipping yet.)  The price Conner
quoted was $1295 quantity one.  I don't know how this translates to mail-order
street pricing.  Can anybody else speak authoritatively to this?

	If I recall correctly the Conner was spec'ed at 12 msec average access
time and has a 256K internal buffer (IDE at least) with smarter management
algorithms than the current models.  Sounds like a winner.

	BTW, Conner doesn't have an exclusive here (although their pricing is
more aggresive than some others).  HP, Rodime, Quantum, Fujitsu, etc., have an-
nounced similar drives.  See the current issue (4 Feb 91) of EDN ( a trade
mag for EEs) for a quick overview of these new drives.
-- 
Ray Berry  kb7ht  uucp: ...sumax!ole!ray CIS: 73407,3152 /* "inquire within" */


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!software.mitel.com!wood!wood 16 Feb 91 00:15:58 GMT   
From: wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 16 Feb 91 00:15:58 GMT
References: <1991Feb11.205602.6901@nntp-server.caltech.edu>
	<15082@uudell.dell.com> <6556@testeng1.misemi>
Sender: wood@Software.Mitel.COM
Organization: Public Switching, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario, Canada
In-reply-to: huis@testeng1.misemi's message of 15 Feb 91 18:34:14 GMT

In article <6556@testeng1.misemi> huis@testeng1.misemi (Stephen Hui) writes:

>	   You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software.
>  I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format
>   my ST-157A. 

 DO NOT LOW LEVEL FORMAT YOUR IDE DRIVE!!!!  I have a SEAGATE 1144 that
looks real nice sitting in a box ready for return to dealer. The dealer
suggested that I take the lattest release of Disk Manager 4.3 and let it 
install my drive. It let me do a low level format of the disk (error in 
communication with dealer) and since then the drive will not boot my system.

After phone calls with seagate, it was determined that the low level format
has disstroyed the bad sector map in the disk (notice how there is no bad
sector list on the IDE drives ) Just so happens (I guess) that one of the bad
sectors in my drive was an important one :-)

However, to take some of the scare out; I also have an older IDE dirve that
I did a low level format on and it still works fine. (But never again will
I do that)

...Dale Wood
wood@Mitel.Software.COM


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!spool.mu.edu!snorkelwacker.mit.edu!shelby!msi.umn.edu!noc.MR.NET!nic.stolaf.edu!uafhp!mamos 16 Feb 91 19:29:32 GMT   
From: mamos@uafhp.uark.edu (Mark _E_ Amos)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 16 Feb 91 19:29:32 GMT
Organization: University of Arkansas, Fayetteville

wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood) writes:

>After phone calls with seagate, it was determined that the low level format
>has disstroyed the bad sector map in the disk (notice how there is no bad
>sector list on the IDE drives ) Just so happens (I guess) that one of the bad
>sectors in my drive was an important one :-)

Just a note which might be of interest: Last summer I put together 16 AT class
machines with MiniScribe 3.5" 40Meg IDE drives, and every one of them came with
a bad sector map: 2 decals (1 presumably to stick on the drive) AND a dot
matrix printout of the bad sector test results - apparently a report sheet from
the test program itself...

I mentioned this because all this hulabuloo over IDE drives is getting rather 
confusing, and after talking to Miniscribe about the drives I worked with, I
have come to the (obvious?) conclusion that IDE drives differ widely between
manufacturers.  I know hard drives have always differed between makers, but
what I mean is the core implementation and design of the actual IDE board
itself, in addition to the mechanical differences.  Correct me if I'm wrong,
but I understand EVERYTHING electronically is INTEGRATED into the drive itself,
with the exception of the "glue" chips (count 'em on one hand) that buffer the
PC bus.  To me, this means the manufacturer can do almost anything they want
to implement the actual controller.  Further, to say "My motherboard has a
built in IDE controller" would be a bad misnomer - more correct is "My mother-
board has a built in IDE drive interface (less than 10 standard logic parts).

The conclusion I have for all this is it makes a BIG difference who you get
your IDE drive from as to whether or not you can low-level format, and how
reliable the thing is generally...  For instance, I have heard alot of
complaints about Seagate IDEs, and I personally have experience with Miniscribe
and their hot running, low MTBF IDE drive; I own a Conner 3184 82Meg, however,
and it is the fastest, quetiest, coolest running hard drive I have seen on a 
PC (this one is a 386-25), and I have had no trouble whatever from it.  In
other words, if I were going to buy another IDE, it would be a Conner. Period.

Just my observations. Please correct if you have seen otherwise.


==============================================================================
  Mark _E_ Amos        | University of Arkansas Computer Science Engineering
  mamos@uafhp.uark.edu | 
  mea1@engr.uark.edu   | (emphasise the Computer Engineering please)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Man's mind, when stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original
 dimension."				              -Oliver Wendell Holmes
==============================================================================


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!bonnie.concordia.ca!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!dgbt!barry 14 Feb 91 21:44:11 GMT   
From: barry@dgbt.doc.ca (Barry McLarnon DGBT/DIP)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE questions
Date: 14 Feb 91 21:44:11 GMT
References: <1991Feb7.215934.8935@amd.com>
Organization: The Communications Research Centre, Ottawa, Canada

>From article <1991Feb7.215934.8935@amd.com>, by lpdjb@brahms.amd.com (Jerry Bemis):
> In article <1991Feb6.140303.1@ssdvx2.mdcbbs.com> teague@ssdvx2.mdcbbs.com (Chris Teague) writes:
>>Does anyone know what the drive limit is for an IDE interface card.  All of the
>>IDE cables I have seen only have one drive connector.  Is it possible to put
>>two or more hard drives on one interface card, or would they each need an
>>interface card? 
> Yes you can install two (2) IDE drives with one interface card.
> A second connerctor can be put on the original cable.  Mine wasn't long enough 
> so I made my own.  
> NOW FOR THE HARD PART 
> IDE drives come setup for single drive operation.  A jumper(s) needs to be 
> changed on both drives.  Why is this hard?  The store I bought the second
> drive from was not able to tell me what jumpers to change!  They told me 
> several incorrect ways--of which one shorted my power supply.

A colleague of mine has a similar problem.  The drives involved are a
Conner CP-344 40MB and a Seagate ST-1144A 125MB.  The drives work ok
individually, but we haven't discovered the jumper settings needed to get
them both to fly at once, and we are loathe to experiment and possibly end
up toasting something.  The jumpers on the Conner are labled HSP, C/D, DSP,
and ACT; the jumpers on the Seagate are ACT, EVS, SLV, MTR and LT.  Anybody
got info on the proper configuration for running both drives?

This is pretty esoteric, so I suggest you use e-mail rather than posting
to respond.  Thanks in advance...

Barry

-- 
Barry McLarnon                  |  Internet: barry@dgbt.doc.ca
Communications Research Centre  |  PBBS: VE3JF@VE3JF.ON.CAN
Ottawa, Canada  K2H 8S2         |  AMPRnet: barry@hs.ve3jf [44.135.96.7]


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!utgpu!cunews!software.mitel.com!wood!wood 18 Feb 91 12:33:40 GMT   
From: wood@Software.Mitel.COM (Dale Wood)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE questions
Date: 18 Feb 91 12:33:40 GMT
References: <1991Feb7.215934.8935@amd.com> <1991Feb14.214411.2679@dgbt.doc.ca>
Sender: wood@Software.Mitel.COM
Organization: Public Switching, MITEL Corporation, Kanata, Ontario, Canada
In-reply-to: barry@dgbt.doc.ca's message of 14 Feb 91 21:44:11 GMT



   > IDE drives come setup for single drive operation.  A jumper(s) needs to be 
   > changed on both drives.  Why is this hard?  The store I bought the second
   > drive from was not able to tell me what jumpers to change!  They told me 
   > several incorrect ways--of which one shorted my power supply.

   I just bought a Seagate ST-1144A 125MB drive. I had another 1144 drive
on loan (With data) and connected this drive just fine (with a manual and
some phone assistance) After I removed the borrowed 1144 I installed an 80Meg
Conner - Here is the info that I required.

ST-1144A dirve
	
    jumpers                                                 MASTER    SLAVE PRES.
     0  0    Remote Led        || Single Drive System       Install     Remove
     0  0    Reserved          || Drive 1 in 2 Drive System Install     Install
     0  0    Slave Present     || Drive 2 in 2 Drive System Remove      Remove
     0  0    Master            ||
     0  0    Live-Test       

To install the Conner drive as Drive 2 - Remove the C/D jumper.

Ensure that the Boot section of the hard disk is a DOS sector (FDisk or DM/M)


Dale Wood
wood@Software.Mitel.COM


From corton!mcsun!uunet!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gwoho Thu Feb 21 01:47:23 MET 1991
From: gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 18 Feb 91 21:34:59 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

mamos@uafhp.uark.edu (Mark _E_ Amos) writes:

>leoh@hardy.hdw.csd.harris.com (Leo Hinds) writes:

>>And what are we poor souls to do in that case? ... I am not looking @ 
>>modifying the interleave, but I do need a way to test/reformat non 
>>destructively a non-new drive (that is currently displaying errors) normally 
>>corrected with spinrite.
>>

> Use Norton Utilities 5.0 CALIBRAT.EXE - it seems to do much the same function
                                             *****
thats right, it seems to. in fact, it doesn't. it does not do any low level
on an ide drive. it does not even know the proper geometry of the drive, so
how could it do anything like adjust interleave, etc?
maybe it does the same thing as spinrite, which is pretend to do a llformat
and interleave. in fact, norton calibrat does not do either to an ide.
all it does is a media analysis to see if the drive has undetected bad
spots.

> as Spinrite, but works on IDE drives (mine anyway).  Try it - Norton Utilities
> should be bundled with DOS as far as I'm concerned...


>==============================================================================
>  Mark _E_ Amos        | University of Arkansas Computer Science Engineering
>  mamos@uafhp.uark.edu | 
>  mea1@engr.uark.edu   | (emphasise the Computer Engineering please)
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>"Man's mind, when stretched to a new idea, never goes back to its original
> dimension."				              -Oliver Wendell Holmes
>==============================================================================


From chorus!corton!mcsun!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!cunixf.cc.columbia.edu!rutgers!uwm.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!dali.cs.montana.edu!milton!sumax!halcyon!ralphs 19 Feb 91 02:22:19 GMT   
From: halcyon!ralphs@sumax.seattleu.edu (Ralph Sims)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE drives: good or evil?
Date: 19 Feb 91 02:22:19 GMT
Organization: The 23:00 News

jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes:

> goat@ucscb.UCSC.EDU (Craig Stephen Campbell) writes:

> >What do you all know about IDE? What Experiences have you had? rumours you

> Why they're cheap, I don't know.  My experiences with IDE have been nothing
> but good.  These experiences range from installing a pair of Conner CP-3184's
> in a Novell server to dinking around with them on Unix 386 systems.

I can attest to satisfaction with CDC's contribution to COMPAQ's 40-meg
drive in the older 386/16's, MAXTOR's XLT-200A, Conner 3111 (? a 110meg,
maybe a 3184), and a MicroScience 7100-20.  The MicroSci is a little
'clickety' when the drive's being accessed, but appears to be fairly
solid (albeit a little on the 'fat' size when it comes to installing
in the COMPAQ).  No problems running under COMPAQ DOS 3.31 with ~32meg
paritions.

> >    Please please please somebody explain IDE drives... how do you low level
> >    format them, anyways? Disk manufacturers obviously can do it....

> You get a program that is aware of IDE drives.  Disk Manager 4.1 is aware of
> IDE drives.  But make sure that the program is specifically aware of IDE
> drives since it has to switch the drive into native mode and format it using
> its actual drive geometry.

In speaking with drive manufacturers (CONNER and MICROSCIENCE, in this
case), they advised against low-level formatting.  I used DiskMangler
(uh, DiskManager) to help confuse a COMPAQ's limited drive table into
believing it had a compatible drive.

All in all, I think IDE's are a good choice, but one should make sure
the copmuter's BIOS can handle it, or that you can beat it into sub-
mission.  Software wise--at least under MS-DOS--I haven't found
any compatibilities.

I highly recommend the MAXTOR XLT-200A, but this is deteriorating into
a 'religious' issue :-).


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!hellgate.utah.edu!dog.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!crash!pnet01!jca 19 Feb 91 06:16:03 GMT   
From: jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: IDE drives: good or evil?
Date: 19 Feb 91 06:16:03 GMT
Sender: root@crash.cts.com
Organization: People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA
Xref: chorus comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware:4539 comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc:5462

hp0p+@andrew.cmu.edu (Hokkun Pang) writes:
>are IDE drives generally noisier than other types? my IDE is as noisy as hell!

Depends on the drive.  Conners and Maxtors are so quiet that it drives you
insane.  On those two drives you want the LED hooked up otherwise you'd never
know that it's working.  My running joke about those *VERY* quiet IDE and SCSI
3.5" drives is that there's really a little elf inside of the computer writing
the data down on a noiseless marker board.

     // JCA

 /*
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 ** Flames  : /dev/null                     | What to buy?
 ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil     | EISA or MCA?
 ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com            | When will the bus wars end?
 ** UUCP    : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hp-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca
 **--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
 */


From chorus!corton!mcsun!sunic!news.funet.fi!tukki.jyu.fi!jyu.fi!otto 18 Feb 91 16:25:53 GMT   
From: otto@tukki.jyu.fi (Otto J. Makela)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: IDE HDs > 177MB
Date: 18 Feb 91 16:25:53 GMT
References: <26812@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU>
Sender: news@tukki.jyu.fi (News articles)
Organization: Turing Police, Criminal AI section
In-Reply-To: jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu's message of 9 Feb 91 20:55:33 GMT
Nntp-Posting-Host: jyu.fi

In article <26812@uflorida.cis.ufl.EDU> jdb@reef.cis.ufl.edu (Brian K. W. Hook) writes:
[...]
   The drives that I am considering are the Conner CP3204 (~210MB, 16ms),
   a Seagate (ST????: 211MB), and the Maxtor LXT200A (as the others).  They
   are within 150 dollars of each other.

I blew the bearings on an Imprimis ST1201A (177Mb) which had been spinning
continuously for 8 months and brought a Conner CP3204.  I've been very
satisfied with it, it seems much quieter then the Imprimis product (this is
an important criteria for me, since the machine is a BBS in my living room).
--
   /* * * Otto J. Makela <otto@jyu.fi> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */
  /* Phone: +358 41 613 847, BBS: +358 41 211 562 (USR HST/V.32, 24h/d)   */
 /* Mail: Kauppakatu 1 B 18, SF-40100 Jyvaskyla, Finland, EUROPE         */
/* * * Computers Rule 01001111 01001011 * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * */


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!maverick.ksu.ksu.edu!ux1.cso.uiuc.edu!blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu!scott 18 Feb 91 17:16:47 GMT   
From: scott@blueeyes.kines.uiuc.edu (scott)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 18 Feb 91 17:16:47 GMT
Organization: University of Illinois at Urbana

In article <6556@testeng1.misemi> huis@testeng1.UUCP () writes:
>
>	You can do a low level format on IDE drive with the right software.
>I got a DiskManager 4.3 for SEAGATE drive, which allow me to low level format
>my ST-157A. However, IDE is almost the same as RLL drive and interleave is set
>to 1:1 already. If you change the interleave factor then all you will get is
>a poorer Xfer rate drive. Also, all IDE drives are pre-low level formatted
>by the maker with interleave 1:1, that's why nobody would do a low level
>format.

This appears to be based on the assumption that a single low-level format
lasts forever, or at least as long as the disk drive is alive. Not true - 
that's why we need programs like SpinRite which compensate for "drift" in
the alignment of the read/write heads that occurs as the drive ages. Also,
the formatting information "fades" with time, and needs to be refreshed
periodically, again with a low-level format.

That's why EVERYBODY should be able to do a low-level format on their drive.
The only exception would be if the controller in the IDE drive automatically
detected and corrected drift and other LL formatting problems. It's good
that Disk Manager will do the job. Does anyone know if SpinRite II can
handle IDE drives?


-- 
Scott Coleman                                                      tmkk@uiuc.edu

"Unisys has demonstrated the power of two. That's their stock price today."
       - Scott McNealy on the history of mergers in the computer industry.


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!samsung!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!bronze!silver!ntaib 23 Feb 91 04:24:51 GMT   
From: ntaib@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (Nur Iskandar Taib)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: how do i change the interleave on a ide drive?
Date: 23 Feb 91 04:24:51 GMT
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington

>>	The best answer is YOU DON'T!  Definetly don't low-level your
>>	IDE drive.  Seagate and Conner won't even guarantee they can do
>>	it at the factory, if you manage to do it yourself you'll just
>>	end up with a very expensive paper weight.  As far as the interleave,
>>	it's set for the drive.  Changing it won't increase performance, if


Which brings up the question: does Spinrite work on
IDE drives? I know it won't work on SCSI's....



--
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Iskandar Taib                        | The only thing worse than Peach ala
Internet: NTAIB@AQUA.UCS.INDIANA.EDU |    Frog is Frog ala Peach
Bitnet:   NTAIB@IUBACS               !
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!jarthur!nntp-server.caltech.edu!gwoho 21 Feb 91 08:53:25 GMT   
From: gwoho@nntp-server.caltech.edu (g liu)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: llformat ide doesn't
Date: 21 Feb 91 08:53:25 GMT
Organization: California Institute of Technology, Pasadena

here is a fun experiment to try at home.

1. llformat your ide drive.
2. check to see if the information on the drive is still there.

when i do this with the ami bios diags thing in my computer or any
of the programs i find in simtel/wustl or on bbss, the info is still
there. only the first few sectors are wiped out.
i have yet to find a program claiming to llformats my drive that removes
any information past the first few sectors.
i have tried perhaps a dozen different programs.

many programs pretend to lowlevel ide drives. probably this is a major cause
of confusion.

gwoho liu.


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!magnus.ircc.ohio-state.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!caen!umich!sharkey!nstar!jwt!john 26 Feb 91 03:31:11 GMT   
From: john@jwt.UUCP (John Temples)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: IDE Transfer Rates (was: Re: TOSHIBA IDE HARDDRIVE INFO)
Keywords: HD
Date: 26 Feb 91 03:31:11 GMT
References: <4663@cocoa46.UUCP>
Distribution: comp
Organization: Private System -- Orlando, FL

In article <4663@cocoa46.UUCP> reichert@motcid.UUCP (Chuck KD9JQ) writes:
>The current 1 to 1 interleave gives 920 - 970kbs transfer rate.

Using what -- CoreTest?  I just ran CoreTest on a Conner CP3204, and
got a very impressive 1100 kb/sec transfer rate with no software disk
caching enabled.  I suspect that this figure is almost totally
meaningless.  Since the Conner's on board cache is at least as large as
the maximum block size can CoreTest use, I think all I'm seeing is the
speed at which I can read from the drive's cache.  I doubt that
CoreTest is able to force a physical read from the drive.

After using the drive for the while, it certainly didn't feel like I
was getting the impressive performance I expected.  I ran a simple C
program I use to benchmark disk performance which writes 1024 records
of 1024 bytes each, then reads them back in sequence.  The write rate
was an appalling 70 kb/sec, with the read rate not much better at 140
kb/sec.  Results were similar under both DOS and UNIX.  Suspecting the
non-cached 20 MHz 386 wasn't fast enough to keep up with 1:1 interleave
at 12 Mbits/sec, I tried the drive on a cached 386/33, with the same
results.

Now that I find the Conner to be significantly slower than a 1:1
ST-506/MFM drive in "application level" transfer rates, I wonder if
I've set something up incorrectly, or is a 386/33 just not fast enough
to run 1:1 at 12 Mbits?  Should the drive be reformatted to 2:1, or
should I get a 486/33?  Will I get better performance from ESDI at
10-20 Mbits/sec?
-- 
John W. Temples -- john@jwt.UUCP (uunet!jwt!john)


From chorus!corton!mcsun!unido!fauern!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!uunet!motcid!reichert 21 Feb 91 20:54:00 GMT   
From: reichert@motcid.UUCP (Chuck KD9JQ)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: TOSHIBA IDE HARDDRIVE INFO
Date: 21 Feb 91 20:54:00 GMT
Organization: Motorola Inc., Cellular Infrastructure Div., Arlington Heights, IL

FYI

I have a Toshiba MK-234-FCH 104M IDE Drive which "can be low level
formatted" per Toshiba.  Their hardware design allows for low level format
without screwing up the tables.  Not all manufacturers have this capability!
Generally, I wouldn't low level format unless I absolutely had to.  The current
1 to 1 interleave gives 920 - 970kbs transfer rate.  Using CHECKIT I get only
540kbs average (1989 AMI Bios timing Problem) but get 13.7Mbs rate with
SMARTDRV.SYS installed.  New 1990 AMI Bios I'm waiting for should increase base
rate back to the 920-970kbs rate.

For this drive set Cyl = 844 Heads = 7 Sectors = 35  LZ = 845  Comp = 65535 or
Off.  

IDE Drives are generally quieter and faster.  CHECKIT indicates 23.4ms Transfer
Rate,  4.7ms Track-Track Rate.

Controller Hardware is mounted at the HD and the Controller Card (Paddle Board)
is actually just an interface to the motherboard with FD Controllers.

In General, Don't Low Level Format unless you have to or the HD Vendor says you
can.  If you have to clean up your drive due to a virus just do a Format, not
a Low Level.  The pre 4-09-90 AMI ROM BIOS set (4 chip) has a timing problem 
that causes IDE Drive Hangups.  Ontracks DiskManager will format the drive and
provide useable drive speeds.  DRIVE=C:\DMDRVR.BIN /R1=5 will make the bus thinkyou have a different type of controller. 

I have no connection with Toshiba other than an "End User".





        Chuck Reichert  KD9JQ


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!jarthur!usc!cs.utexas.edu!evax!utacfd!merch!cpe!adaptex!adaptx1!neese 27 Feb 91 05:28:28 GMT   
From: neese@adaptx1.UUCP
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: How does an IDE drive work ?
Date: 27 Feb 91 05:28:28 GMT
References: <5222@male.EBay.Sun.COM>


>/* ---------- "How does an IDE drive work ?" ---------- */
>Hi NetLanders,
>
>    I'm fascinated with the so-called IDE drives. I understand that the
>only thing a user has to do is to select a drive type closest to the
>capacity of the actual device during the CMOS setup, and the IDE drive will
>happily emulate that particular drive type. How is that done ?
>Specifically, I like to know the followings:
>
>	1. When does the drive figure out what to emulate ? At boot time ?

Some drive do it on the fly.  Other read the paramters at boot time and
others have switches to figure it out.  The best way to know about how
each drive does it is to get the OEM manual for that particular drive.

>	2. Who does the track/head/sector remapping ? The controller
>	   hardware, or the so-called expansion BIOS. Can somebody
>           describe what involves in the initialization phase and normal
>	   I/O operations ? Like reading the CMOS RAM, blah, blah...

The controller on the drive does the remapping.  As far as initialization
goes, it is best explained in the OEM manual for each drive.  It varies
from drive to drive.  But basic init is done by the system BIOS by the
code that did the init for standard disks.  IDE drives are *supposed* to
appear to the systems just like the standard ST506/MFM drives/controllers do.

>	3. Does that mean IDE drives depend heavily on the DOS operating
>	   environment in order to function ? If the drive fails to
>	   figure out what to emulate, does it act like a generic ST506
>	   disk controller ?

IDE drives do not depend on DOS for proper operation.  If the drive is
engineered correctly it will appear to be a standard ST506 MFM controller.

>	4. Now, the actual disk is a total black box as far as a user is
>	   concerned. What does a (high-capacity) disk look like,
>	   physically ? Does it use the standard ST506 data transfer rate ?
>	   Does it use a zone encoding technique, i.e. putting more sectors
>	   on outer tracks, to increase overall capacity?

As far as transfer rate goes,....it really doesn't matter how slow or how
fast the data transfer rate is.  As all data transfers take place via PIO
through the system bus, the system will take/send the data as fast as the
drive will send/receive the data.  The drive regulates the data transfer
rate, much like SCSI drives do the same thing.
The data rate to/from the drive will be at the rate of the encoding scheme.
The encoding scheme is completely transparent to the system.

			Roy Neese
			Adaptec Senior SCSI Applications Engineer
			UUCP @  neese@adaptex
				uunet!cs.utexas.edu!utacfd!
				  {nominil,merch,cpe}!adaptex!neese
				uunet!mlite!adaptex!neese


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!olivea!bbn.com!starfleet.bbn.com!grossman 6 Mar 91 20:30:46 GMT
From: grossman@starfleet.bbn.com.bbn.com (Martin Grossman)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc,comp.sys.ibm.ps2.hardware,comp.os.msdos.programmer
Subject: need layout of IDE zones, and 386 control software
Date: 6 Mar 91 20:30:46 GMT

1) please respond only via email to grossman@bbn.com

2) Here's the hardware questions

	I have in my new 80386DX the following IDE drive.
	ST1144AT
	ROM Ver 5.0
	RAM Ver 5.5
	CYL=1021   HEAD=7   SEC= 44/36/30    512bytes/sec
	1) anything special in these drives that their is a version on
	   the RAM?
	2) I read the BYTE article on IDE drives and fully understand
	   it...SO my drive has three zones...outer tracks have 44
	   sectors and inner have 30 BUT!!!! how many cylinders for
	   each of the three zones? (ie does anyone have the full spec
	   sheets?) I only have 1 sheet that sais the above.
	3) the cmos ram in the system is set up on #47 (user defined
	   one) and is set to cyl=1001 head=15 sec=17 noprecomp and
	   no reduced write.
	4) I understand why its set to 15 heads to take care of all
	   them sectors BUT...why only setup for 1001 cyl??  are the
	   rest of the cyl all reserved for bad sector replacement (so
	   the drive looks perfect)?  Isn't that a lot of space for
	   replacements? Here at work (on the C/70) we set asside 508
	   replacement sectors for a 340MB drive!!!  And that always
	   been plenty!!!

3) Whats the difference (besides price) between Quaterdeck QEMM386
   and 386MAX (don't remember the Co.)


From chorus!corton!mcsun!sunic!uupsi!rpi!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!rice!uw-beaver!mit-eddie!bbn.com!mips2!fhr!stagu 15 Mar 91 15:42:31 GMT   
From: stagu@fhr (Steve Tague)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: How does one install an IDE drive?
Date: 15 Mar 91 15:42:31 GMT
Organization: Bull HN Informations Systems Inc.

1.) You need an appropriate IDE interface either on the bus or on your
mother board.  I have been told that there are more than one kind of IDE
interfaces available so checking for compatability is important.

2.) You need the appropriate mounting kit for the bay in which you
intend to install drive.

3.) You need a power tap, either a spare from the power supply or a Y
connector.

4.) You need the IDE cable.

5.) Get from the salesperson a manual or facts as to the:

	Number of cylinders
	Number of heads
	Number of sectors per track
	(Unlikely to be other than 512 but--Number of bytes per sector)

6.) Look at either the documentation on your PC or rummage in the ROM
BIOS to see what combinations of Cyl/Head/Sectors are understood by your
BIOS.  If you are lucky, you have a ROM BIOS that supports a USER
defined disk configuration.  Idealy you want to find a pre-canned
configuration that exactly matches the numbers in step 5.  If you are
unlucky like I was, pick the entry with the number of heads and number
of sectors that match that of the drive and has a cylinder count LESS
THAN the number for the drive--this looses some of the disk but you
won't BREAK YOUR DRIVE.  [This is AT type info, XT's don't have ROM BIOS
configuration stuff like this].

7.) Make a bootable floppy with your RESTORE program, FDISK, SETUPPC(if
not in ROM or the equivalent program for updating CMOS) and FORMAT available.

8.) Back-up your old drive if you are replacing it--DO IT EVEN IF YOUR NOT.

9.) Install the drive and cables.

10).Power up the machine.  It takes a LONG time for the mis-match
between the CMOS configuration and the new hardware to time-out and give
a warning.  Boot from floppy and run SETUPPC (or equivalent, or use
alternate BOOT method to get ROM SETUP) to select the drive
configuration code determined in step 6.

11).Reboot from floppy.  This should work quicker if the configuration
code is close to correct.

12).Run FDISK to partition your drive.  Unless you use DOS4.0, a drive
letter cannot represent more than 32MB.  Even with DOS4.0 avoid creating
a drive letter with more than 32MB unless you really need one volume of
that size as this forces the RESIDENT LOADING of SHARE in the 640K region.

13).Run FORMAT on all logical partitions to which you have assigned a
drive letter.

14).Restore your saved data.

GOOD LUCK.
Steve


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!ukma!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!linac,att!emory!ogicse!milton!sumax!halcyon!ralphs 19 Mar 91 06:14:04 GMT
From: halcyon!ralphs@seattleu.edu (Ralph Sims)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.misc
Subject: Re: How does one install an IDE drive?
Date: 19 Mar 91 06:14:04 GMT
Organization: The 23:00 News and Mail Service

rschmidt@copper.ucs.indiana.edu (roy schmidt) writes:

> Since your motherboard is 1989 vintage, your BIOS probably is, as well.
> To use an IDE drive, you will need to replace the BIOS with one dated
> 4/90 or later.  And, you will need an adaptor card (only about $20 for
> single hard drive, $50 for dual hard drive/dual floppy.)

We have a COMPAQ DESKPRO 386/16 with a 1986 BIOS.  Supports IDE
drives just fine (the original CDC and now a MicroScience, and we
had a Conner in it for a while).

--
                    halcyon!ralphs@seattleu.edu
  The 23:00 News and Mail Service - +1 206 292 9048 - Seattle, WA USA
                 +++ A Waffle Iron, Model 1.64 +++



From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!linac!midway!msuinfo!buster.cps.msu.edu!draper 2 Jun 91 04:59:00 GMT
From: draper@buster.cps.msu.edu (Patrick J Draper)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Using IDE and MFM Drives together
Date: 2 Jun 91 04:59:00 GMT
Organization: Dept. of Computer Science, Michigan State University

>>  Does anyone know if it is possible to combien both an MFM and IDE disk
>>drive on the same system?  The PC I purchased is using the AWARD bios with
>>the IDE disk controller on the motherboard.
>
>I don't see how.  You can set up your bios info about both drives all right,
>but either the MFM and IDE/drive controllers will conflict with each other,
>or the MFM controller will try to access the second MFM drive, which isin't
>there.  You may get around this if you can set either the the IDE or the
>MFM controller to respond as a secondary controller.  I am in the same
>situation, and if I can dig up the specs for my mfm controller (which is
>integrated into my Western Digital mother board), I'll try it.

Yes, you can. Make the IDE secondary to the MFM drive, and install a
jumper on the IDE controller to disable the floppy controller (if it has
one) and switch the bios mapping location to an alternate address. Set
the BIOS type on the primary MFM drive to what it's supposed to be, and
the second hard disk bios setting to NOT INSTALLED.

It also requires that there is ONE partition on the MFM drive, as the
IDE will take the letters D:, E:, etc.


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Patrick Draper       disclaimer --- "I can't control my fingers, 
cps.msu.edu                          I can't control my toes." 
draper@cps.msu.edu           --Ramones 
------------------------------------------------------------------------


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!ria!valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca!wlsmith 3 Jun 91 04:41:17 GMT   
From: wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne L. Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Using IDE and MFM Drives together
Date: 3 Jun 91 04:41:17 GMT
Organization: The John P. Robarts Research Institute, London, Ontario

In article <1991Jun2.045900.15627@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> draper@buster.cps.msu.edu (Patrick J Draper) writes:
>Set
>the BIOS type on the primary MFM drive to what it's supposed to be, and
>the second hard disk bios setting to NOT INSTALLED.

I thought that IDE controllers needed the bios info.  If you set the 2'nd
drive bios info to -NOT INSTALLED-, how does the IDE controller/drive
know what's going on?  How does the computer know what's going on?

>It also requires that there is ONE partition on the MFM drive, as the
>IDE will take the letters D:, E:, etc.

When I had an RLL / SCSI combo going, I found that the partitions were
interleaved, ie the SCSI responded with C, E, G... and the RLL had the
D, F, etc.  Just what determined that (bios or DOS or something else)?


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!vuse.vanderbilt.edu!jsims 3 Jun 91 17:06:10 GMT   From: jsims@vuse.vanderbilt.edu (J. Robert Sims)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Using IDE and MFM Drives together
Date: 3 Jun 91 17:06:10 GMT
Organization: Vanderbilt University School of Engineering, Nashville, TN, USA

In article <3224@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne L. Smith) writes:
>In article <1991Jun2.045900.15627@msuinfo.cl.msu.edu> draper@buster.cps.msu.edu (Patrick J Draper) writes:
>>Set
>>the BIOS type on the primary MFM drive to what it's supposed to be, and
>>the second hard disk bios setting to NOT INSTALLED.
>
>I thought that IDE controllers needed the bios info.  If you set the 2'nd
>drive bios info to -NOT INSTALLED-, how does the IDE controller/drive
>know what's going on?  How does the computer know what's going on?
>
>>It also requires that there is ONE partition on the MFM drive, as the
>>IDE will take the letters D:, E:, etc.
>
>When I had an RLL / SCSI combo going, I found that the partitions were
>interleaved, ie the SCSI responded with C, E, G... and the RLL had the
>D, F, etc.  Just what determined that (bios or DOS or something else)?

The documentation I've seen said that the 1st drive would be identified
by C, E, F, G, ... and the second drive would be D, H, I, J..., not 
interleaved.  This sort of makes sense; the DOS partitions comes first,
and then the extended partitions.  Each extended partition's drives
are listed together.

Rob


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!xstor!bills 3 Jun 91 18:56:23 GMT   
From: bills@xstor.com (Bill Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Two IDE questions
Date: 3 Jun 91 18:56:23 GMT
Organization: Storage Dimensions, Inc.

In article <i7Js33w163w@dorsai> skipm@dorsai (Dorsai SysOp) writes:
>phil@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu (Phil Howard KA9WGN) writes:
>> 
>> How does one tell the difference?
>> 
>> And how many different encoding systems, or other things, are relevant?
>> Is ESDI its own encoding system?
>> -- 
>
> 
>IDE drives are unique in that they allow you to flexibly determine what
>their drives, heads, and cylinders are. While the drive physically has
>a set number of heads and cylinders, you can set your BIOS to something
>else that is equal to or less than a drive of the same size. For
>example, a type 40 & type 17 drive look the same to an unformatted IDE
>drive since neither of those configurations exceed the total megabyte
>capacity of the drive. Note however, once you format them with a 
>particular BIOS setting, the drive parameters are no longer interchangable
>since information has been written to the drive on what it supposed to
>"look like".
> 
>IDE drives do NOT use true MFM encoding, they use a subset of it, long
>ago reffered to as MMFM by Zenith Corp, a technology used by them in
>their early laptops.
> 
>Skip
MFM drives can also be used with smaller head or cylinder entries. I have
done this many times.

-- 

     =====================================================================
     Bill Smith, UNIX Technical Support           uucp:  uunet!xstor!bills
     Storage Dimensions, Inc.			        


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cs.utexas.edu!news-server.csri.toronto.edu!helios.physics.utoronto.ca!ria!valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca!wlsmith 3 Jun 91 21:37:50 GMT   
From: wlsmith@valve.heart.rri.uwo.ca (Wayne L. Smith)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Using IDE and MFM Drives together
Date: 3 Jun 91 21:37:50 GMT
Organization: The John P. Robarts Research Institute, London, Ontario

>In article <3224@ria.ccs.uwo.ca> Patrick Draper writes:
>The IDE drive controller has its own BIOS on board. It doesn't need to
>know anything about the PC's BIOS.

If an IDE drive has it's own bios (and it is sophisticated enough to have
a built in controller/rom), then this `bios' is `local' to the drive and is
not accessible by the pc (at least I can't find it).

The PC`s bios talks to the drive through the interface card (for IDE drives).
For SCSI and some MFM/RLL controllers, the bios on the controller shoe-
horns itself into pc memory, and dos et all talks to the drive through
the bios on the controller (the pc's hard drive bios routines are not used).
I think I've got this right ;-i ...


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!cis.ohio-state.edu!tut.cis.ohio-state.edu!rutgers!faatcrl!dajr 3 Jun 91 15:00:06 GMT   
From: dajr@faatcrl (Don Anderson)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Large IDE drives
Date: 3 Jun 91 15:00:06 GMT

bigd@dorsai (David Shapiro) writes:

>What's the largest IDE drive available today? How much does it cost?

I'm not sure of the largest, but I'm running Conner's 3204 212MB and
with a 16-bit 2HD/2FD controller was under $800.00.

HTH,
 
 Don 

*********************************************************************
* Don Anderson      Computer Resource Management, Inc. (CRM)        *
*                   NAS Sim. Support Facility, FAA Technical Center *
*                   Atlantic City Airport, NJ 08405                 *
* UUCP:  ...!rutgers!faatcrl!dajr    Internet:  dajr@faatcrl.UUCP   *
*                   Just because you're paranoid,                   *
*            it doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you!            *
*********************************************************************


From chorus!corton!mcsun!uunet!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!mips!pacbell.com!tandem!netcomsv!feustel 4 Jun 91 03:25:51 GMT   
From: feustel@netcom.COM (David Feustel)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware
Subject: Re: Large IDE drives
Date: 4 Jun 91 03:25:51 GMT
References: <FmVT36w163w@dorsai> <1407@faatcrl.UUCP>
Organization: DAFCO - An OS/2 Oasis

Conner Drives have announce a 540 Meg drive with 12 ms access time for
$1298 list available this year.
-- 
David Feustel, 1930 Curdes Ave, Fort Wayne, IN 46805, (219) 482-9631
EMAIL: feustel@netcom.com  or feustel@cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu


