
*********** The Computer Art Forum  11/17/91 20:57:40

R13: Matt Drury: hello!
     John Eagan/VR: hi Matt
     Matt Drury: I have the capture buffer enabled for everyone's chat to be 
             | recorded
             | for posterity.
     John Eagan/VR: me too
     Matt Drury: (Nintendo power glove C source.)
             | Do we have the plans necessary to make the glove serial-port
             | compatible?
     John Eagan/VR: just got a message....the plans are in the docs
     Matt Drury (Host): Excellent. There may be a delay while people show up.
     John Eagan/VR: ....got a message from Chris, new code in the works, he'll 
             | upload it
             | when ready
     Matt Drury (Host): Fantastic!
     John Eagan/VR: he also told me Toys 'r Us is blowing them out for $25!!
     Matt Drury (Host): Got to grab a glove for that price!
     John Eagan/VR: may get 2!<g>
             | hope they still HAVE some!
     Matt Drury (Host): That is true. I will call the local store tomorrow 
             | morning.
     John Eagan/VR: here they come!
     Chris Eisnaugle: Evening John, Matt
     John Eagan/VR: hi Chris
     Chris Eisnaugle: BRB im on at 2400
     Matt Drury (Host): Hello, Chris. Welcome to VR conference #1!
     John Eagan/VR: I thought Alex Schipal was coming in? maybe he's switching 
             | baud too
     Matt Drury (Host): I haven't heard.
     John Eagan/VR: his name went by on screen (neat thing about CIM,can watch 
             | traffic)
     Matt Drury (Host): John, do you feel that Sunday evening COs will be a 
             | regular
             | event?
     John Eagan/VR: hope so!
     Matt Drury (Host): Chris, John just told me that Toys reverse-R Us has
             | Nintendo Power Gloves for $25.
     Chris Eisnaugle: Yes i read msg, will see if i can pick one up....
     Matt Drury (Host): I've got a tickler to call them tomorrow.
     Chris Eisnaugle: the TRU near us didnt have them...wil have to head...
             | up to a diff one
     Matt Drury (Host): Many good files have come in this weekend; make sure
             | to check libraries 2 and 13 soon. Come the end of the
             | month, I will stop copying files directly unless they
             | are part of the VR project code; they'll float from
             | 2 to 3 to 13 like normal files.
             | This 'copy everything' procedure lets us build a...
             | set of files in a new area's library.
             | Personal note: My fiance and I marry on May 9, 1992.
     Chris Eisnaugle: Congratulations
     John Eagan/VR: congratulations
     Matt (Host): Thank you!
     John Eagan/VR: Chris- what do you think of external board w/SCSI 
             | interface?
     Chris Eisnaugle: John - thats sort of what i was proposing in my first 
             | few messages...
             | where i felt if it was integrated into the helmet and run 
             | through...
             | a port would allevaite the computer/Bus dependance. ga
     John Eagan/VR: I'm starting to like that
     Chris Eisnaugle: It has a lot of advantages...
     John Eagan/VR: hi Mike
     Chris Eisnaugle: and should be not to bad in creating.
     Chris Eisnaugle: Hi Mike
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Hello
     Chris Eisnaugle: I do like the transputer idea as well as they are 
             | extremeley fast...
     Mike Donohue Jr.: just here to see what you all have to say about VR
     Chris Eisnaugle: and powerful but not that expensive.
     John Eagan/VR: Mike-welcome to the first VR conference!
             | How much $,Chris?
     Chris Eisnaugle: well to give you an example....
             | a fully integrated PC board with all logic etc already..is...
             | i believe under $1200, looking in mag...
             | and thats retail, plus it prob has a lot m ore on the board 
             | than...
             | we would need etc.
     John Eagan/VR: $1200? <choke>
             | what about just for rendering?
     Chris Eisnaugle: Not that bad John, people spend that here on CIS in 6 
             | weeks
     John Eagan/VR: not me!<g>
             | (takes 8,at least!)<g>
     Chris Eisnaugle: Remember $1200 is for a full board already running...
             | the chip is prob far far less.
     Mike S  | Evenin' all.
     John Eagan/VR: hi Mike
     Mike S  | (oops, using full names tonight...)
     Mike Schoenborn: Evenin' all.
     John Eagan/VR: you ok,Matt?
     John Eagan/VR: poor Matt got et!<g>
     Chris Eisnaugle: Unfort my hardware knowledge is so so in certain areas...
     John Eagan/VR: don't need full name,just too lazy to set nickname!<g>
     Chris Eisnaugle: so cannot say exactly on a transputer chip.
     Mike Schoenborn: I can only stay for a few, are there any glasses 
             | questions
             | I can help answer before I have to go?
     John Eagan/VR: Chris-there is still the problem of design/construction
             | Mike-ummmmm...not offhand
     Chris Eisnaugle: True, but im sure we have some board designers here who 
             | could...
             | yes im going to say it....
     Mike Schoenborn: Hmmm, guess not.  Everybody got their order in :-)
     Chris Eisnaugle: wire wrap a board together for testing <G>
     John Eagan/VR: Mike- not yet.....AAAARRRG! WIRE WRAP! AAAAAAAIIEEEE!
     Mike Schoenborn: Chris - What sort of board are you suggesting?
     Chris Eisnaugle: there has been talk about a helmet...
             | we were discussing the requirements to integrate a board...
             | into the helmet using lets say a transputer chip to do...
             | rendering and receiving its data via lets say the parrallel...
             | port on the host machine. something like that.
     John Eagan/VR: Mike-do you have a working system going with glasses/glove 
             | yet?
     Mike Schoenborn: Aren't transputers (and the required development 
             | software)...
             | a little pricy?
     Chris Eisnaugle: depends, transputers themselves arent that bad, not sure 
             | on development...
             | systems.
     John Eagan/VR: in the end,it's probably the best hope of serious VR,
     Mike Schoenborn: Chris - The cost for C compilers for just about 
             | anything...
             | Chris - except 80x86 chips are pretty expensive.  Even
             | Chris - something as simple as a 64180 compiler is $1k.
     John Eagan/VR: but the glasses will probably be the "starter" system
     Chris Eisnaugle: depends...we would have to contact companies....
             | some will if you have a solid idea, will give you or sell to 
             | you...
             | development systems at a much reduced price.
             | the Helmet is think will prob be the end all not the start.
     Mike Schoenborn: John - The glove code I have (from ChrisB) isn't working
             | John - very good at this point (possibly hdwr probs), but
             | John - the glasses are working just great.
     John Eagan/VR: if we get things rolling here, an smart entrepeneur would 
             | help
             | out,seeing a nrew market on the horizon!
             | or new..<g>
     Chris Eisnaugle: im sure some of us have contacts, i have quite a few 
             | in...
             | various portions of the industry..so im sure we can...
             | arrange things if it comes to that.
             | Wheres ChrisB tonight john?
     John Eagan/VR: don't know,not sure if he could make it
     Mike Schoenborn: Chris - It would be great if we could get a dozen or so
             | Chris - transputer development systems for everyone in the
             | Chris - forum that's interested in pitching in <grin>
     Chris Eisnaugle: hehehe, yes your prob right it would be <G>
             | we shall see <G>
     John Eagan/VR: hmmmmmm....
     Chris Eisnaugle: Anybody know if Cyrix maxes any chips other than....
             | math coprocessors, if so a friend is regional mgr here...
             | on east coast.
             | i know this wont sound nice but....
             | IBM is very very interested in future development...
             | Multimedia and other graphical stuff...
             | they have a big add out in trade rags, that...
             | if you want help give htem a calll...
             | they will talk with ya etc etc.
             | but thats a long shot im sure
     John Eagan/VR: oh yeah?
     Chris Eisnaugle: I know a couple people at IBM might check into that.
             | TI was looking for people for that 3D system John...
             | they might be willing to look into other stuff as well.
     John Eagan/VR: that's interesting,it's worth a shot,although they'd 
             | probably be more
     Chris Eisnaugle: you have to check to find out <G>
     John Eagan/VR: interested in selling us big$ systems when they're 
             | ready!<heavy
             | cynicism>
     Mike Schoenborn: I'm afraid I have to run, folks.  See you all next time.
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Question...Are the glasses you were speaking of beforE 
             | A DEVICE LIKE
     Chris Eisnaugle: hehehe, now now, theyd prob be more interested....
     John Eagan/VR: bye Mike
     Chris Eisnaugle: in buying technology or owning it...
             | if something was concrete <G>
     Mike Donohue Jr.: "THE BOOM"
     John Eagan/VR: "the boom"?
     Mike Schoenborn: Mike - What's THE BOOM?
     Chris Eisnaugle: is the boom the VR system that is on the swivel etc
     Mike Donohue Jr.: SORRY MY I GOT BROKE UP
     John Eagan/VR: what's the boom?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: "THE BOOM" IS A BINOCULAR EYEPIECE FOR VIEWING VR
     Chris Eisnaugle: is it on a tripod like, and swivels aroudn etc
     John Eagan/VR: tell us more!
             | BTW,Mike,switch your caps lock off
     Mike Donohue Jr.: YES ..I HAVE NEVER SEEN IT BUT JUST READ ABOUT IT
             | ok
     John Eagan/VR: who makes it?
     Chris Eisnaugle: i think it was in a byte issue of 1990, cant remember  
             | month...
             | if its what i think its a full fledged system
     Mike Donohue Jr.: The Boom is the name of the company ... I believe
     John Eagan/VR: July? wasn't that the issue with VR stuff?
     Chris Eisnaugle: Yes July i think, there was a pciture
     John Eagan/VR: BTW,I found a picture of the U of N.C. molecular modeling 
             | VR system in
             | Popular Mechanics, of all places! Nov issue
     Chris Eisnaugle: Ever heard of a mag called Midnight Engineering?
     John Eagan/VR: yes,they have it at Software Etc
     Chris Eisnaugle: Nov/Dec Issue has an article called, Is it Virtual or is 
             | it Real...
     John Eagan/VR: I'll look for it
     Chris Eisnaugle: shows a couple neat molecualr type pictured and talks 
             | about...
             | its availability on Amiga etc
     John Eagan/VR: Mike D, just curious,what kind of machine you running?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: 386/20
     John Eagan/VR: there has been discussion in the messages about operating 
             | platforms, 
     Chris Eisnaugle: i did an examination of machines etc for...
     John Eagan/VR: whether we need to cover all the bases, so to speak
     Chris Eisnaugle: some graphics stuff i was doing, some places are opting 
             | for 386sx minimum...
             | for most applications now (These are high end)
     John Eagan/VR: at the rate things are going, my 286 will be considered a 
             | dino soon<g>
     Chris Eisnaugle: <G> thats why i upgraed had a 386/20 but motherboard 
             | died...
             | and couldnt stand my other machine (286/12) (sorry John)
     John Eagan/VR: <sniff>
     Mike Donohue Jr.: I use a 286/12 for my file server
             | works great for that
     John Eagan/VR: file server? you have a LAN at home?!
     Chris Eisnaugle: <--has a Vax 2000 for a file server here, what a dog
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Allows me to do actual multi tasking
             | Multi tasking will be a must when creating VR worlds
     John Eagan/VR: Chris-you have a VAX?
     Chris Eisnaugle: Yes John, but its very old and used for Fileserver 
             | only....
     John Eagan/VR: Mike-agreed,Chris and I have been discussing that for 
             | several days
     Chris Eisnaugle: needed a network when i was developing my Doc Storage 
             | system...
             | and got it for nothin.
     John Eagan/VR: great price! I don't know VAX, is that a real old one?
     Chris Eisnaugle: not ancient no about hmmm 5-6 yrs old i guess...
             | i dont know them real well either, friend works at dec
             | Multitasking on which side, host or rendering side?
     John Eagan/VR: Mike, tell us,what would you want to see in a PC VR system?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Can you expand on that question?
     John Eagan/VR: Mike-which one,mine or Chris'?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: you
     John Eagan/VR: well,our objective in this section is to develop a VR 
             | system that will
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Chris -- rendering
     John Eagan/VR: work on an average PC, one of the issues is,what do we 
             | want to do? what
     Chris Eisnaugle: Explain, why do you feel it is needed on rendering side?
     John Eagan/VR: purpose do we want to pursue in VR? a game? modeling tools 
             | for
             | design?etc...
     Chris Eisnaugle: we want to walk through the paleoithic age with 
             | dinosaurs <G>
             | and then hunt them <G>
     Matt Drury: I want to play the game recently seen on "Star Trek." <G>
     Mike Donohue Jr.: I should clarify...I just make 3d & 2d animations at 
             | this point I am
     Chris Eisnaugle: hehehehe
     Mike Donohue Jr.: somewhat new to VR
     John Eagan/VR: though you fell asleep, Matt!<g>
             | thought
     Chris Eisnaugle: <--wants a holodeck
     John Eagan/VR: I'll bet he does!
             | TI Omniview!
     Chris Eisnaugle: that would be ok also <G>
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Holodeck ---> VR year 2025
     John Eagan/VR: Mike-thats ok, we all are!
             | all-any idea how much for the Omniview system?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: My profession is with LANS, WANS and gateways. 2d & 3d 
             | is a hobby. 
     Chris Eisnaugle: free to developers <G>
             | Mike, know anything about something called...
     Mike Donohue Jr.: how do I get more involved with VR
     Chris Eisnaugle: and ICONCARD its an x.25 card that will do...
             | 256 channels on a pc
     John Eagan/VR: hang around here,Mike
             | Mike,have you checked the section library yet?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Yes download a couple files
             | I am reading a book on VR and am going through 120 article on it
     John Eagan/VR: there is a lot of message activity as well, browsing them 
             | will give you
             | an idea where things are now
             | Mike- 120 article?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: articles
     John Eagan/VR: you have 120 articles on this?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: At work we have a CD containing 120 or so articles on VR
     John Eagan/VR: that's great!
     Mike Donohue Jr.: I was think of uploading it but did not know if I would 
             | be breaking laws
     Chris Eisnaugle: Unfort i gotta run, the wifey calls
     John Eagan/VR: if it's copyrighted(almost certainly is) ,you would
     Chris Eisnaugle: Night all
     John Eagan/VR: you can ..night,Chris!
     Bill Pulver: Hi all
     John Eagan/VR: ....always give us some highlights,though,hi Bill!
             | Mike- what's the CD,BTW?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: I am not sure ... I will get the name and get back to 
             | you
     Bill Pulver: John, IEEE Computer Graphics has some interesting 3d 
             | modeling and a
     John Eagan/VR: thanks...yes,post amessage,we'd like to know
     Bill Pulver: little VR "update" in it for Nov.
     John Eagan/VR: Bill...good, I wonder if I can find that at the library, 
             | might have it a
             | at work, have to check
     Bill Pulver: John, probably at a Univ. Lib if nothing else.
     John Eagan/VR: Bill- any thoughts on the messages so far?
     Matt Drury: Not asleep; merely monitoring. The confernence looks 
             | excellent;
             | I am glad so many people could make it.
     Bill Pulver: Interesting, I dont really see how we are going to manage a 
             | whole lot of
     Matt Drury: However, I do need to sleep; many files tomorrow to
             | handle. Good night, everyone!
     Bill Pulver: HW independance though. The Video is about as system 
             | specific as you can
             | get & ASM is probably best for speed. 
     John Eagan/VR: big questions there,no doubt
             | what about the talk of an external board/parallel port?
     Bill Pulver: Yes, we can get the interface pretty portable sure.
     John Eagan/VR: seems like the best route,at least for a "helmet" system, 
             | for a start, I
     Bill Pulver: The glasses for instance can work thru a parallel port but 
             | the SW to
     John Eagan/VR: think something simple<?> for the glasses/glove will be a 
             | good first
             | proj
     Bill Pulver: drive them is the "heart" and it pretty much must be 
             | specific. 
             | Yep, I think so. Now all I have to do is FIND one! <g>
     John Eagan/VR: Bill- what about doing the software in C, with 
             | machine-specific modules
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Can someone tell me what the effect of these glasses are
     John Eagan/VR: for different platforms?
             | with appropriate ASM modules,of course
     Bill Pulver: Yes that will work but the bulk of the code would be machine 
             | specific
             | still. For instance the 3d modeler could have the 
             | rendering/modeling in
     John Eagan/VR: Mike-i don't have them,only second hand description, but 
             | they have LCD
     Bill Pulver: portable C but there would be a LOT of timing & interface 
             | stuff that
             | would need to be done.
     John Eagan/VR: windows on them, that alternately switch on and off to 
             | block the light,
     Bill Pulver: Mike - I havent seen the Sega ones but I did see a *REAL* 
             | nice system
     John Eagan/VR: and in sync with that, we would need to page-switch the 
             | image i=on
     Bill Pulver: at this years AEC show in DC. It used very high speed LCD 
             | glasses and a
     John Eagan/VR: screen , sort of "multiplex stereoscopic"<g>
     Bill Pulver: PC with 2 SVGA cards in it. *Incredible* effect, the 
             | rendered images
     Mike Donohue Jr.: so you get a 
     Bill Pulver: looked like you were "in" them. They also had a stereo 
             | camera pair
     Mike Donohue Jr.: sorry  so you get a 3d effect on your monitor?
     Bill Pulver: mounted on a little "fork" that was kinda neat. Looked sort 
             | of like
     John Eagan/VR: WITH you monitor, to be specific,yes
     Bill Pulver: taking your eyes out of you head and wondering them around, 
             | wierd
             | actually. <g>
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Ok I saw those on beyound 2000
     John Eagan/VR: the monitor would be alternately displaying..L view,R 
             | view,L view,etc
     Bill Pulver: Mike - Yep, very 3d. This system was $2000+ though, kinda 
             | out of my
             | range!
     John Eagan/VR: <oof>
     Bill Pulver: Also saw the INTEL VR demo helmet there, the images were 
             | pretty
             | primative but the effect is stunning.
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Beyond 2000 is a TV program re: future products
     John Eagan/VR: John Swenson mentioned something interesting   INTEL,huh?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Did not mean $2000
     John Eagan/VR: Bill- fiber optics!
     Bill Pulver: Mike - Yep, watch it on the Discovery channel here all the 
             | time.
             | John - Yep, they'll definatly work for moving an image. Bundles 
             | like
             | that are kida expensive though.
     John Eagan/VR: Edmund Scientific,here we come! hi Scott!
     Bill Pulver: John - I think Edmund Scientific has them....err yep.
     Scott Taylor: Hi All
     John Eagan/VR: glad you could make it
     Bill Pulver: John - Slow typer here. <g>  Hi Scott!
     John Eagan/VR: I'm slower than you,easy!
     Scott Taylor: Whats up?
     Bill Pulver: John - Hehe, it's not the speed, it's the misteaks <g>
     John Eagan/VR: talking about display hardware now
             | <g>
             | no dowt!
             | Scott-
             |  any thoughts?
     Scott Taylor: I haven't hardly seen my computer for the last two weeks.  
             | Hardware
             | hasn't been on my mind. I've been working in the theater and 
             | will start
             | working for public tv soon.
     John Eagan/VR: doing what?
     Scott Taylor: Channel 12 in Denver produces an (alternative rock) music 
             | video show
             | that blows away MTV. I'll do various things from running 
             | cameras to
             | editing.
     John Eagan/VR: sounds great
     Scott Taylor: They're a real great group and it should be a real blast!
     John Eagan/VR: still working on my album-want a promo copy when it's 
             | done?<g>
     Scott Taylor: You bet!
     John Eagan/VR: email your address, I'll put you on the list!
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Question...Has anyone seen any of the work Autodesk is 
             | doing on
             | cyberspace?
     John Eagan/VR: I haven't....Mitch Waite was mentioning it
             | BRB
     Bill Pulver: Mike - No not really, I think I've seen a couple "blurbs" 
             | but thats
             | about it.
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Do you know if he has been exposed to a model
             | ?
     Bill Pulver: I dont hold out to much hope on the, eveything they release 
             | is
             | overpriced.
             | ooops - the = them
     Mike Donohue Jr.: True. However they will most likely be path makers in 
             | the world of VR.
     Bill Pulver: Yep, probably have some of the first PC stuff out. Animator 
             | PRO and 3D
             | Studio are outrageous though. Seen the prices on MAC SW? 
             | Sheesh, nose
             | dive!
     John Eagan/VR: back
     Scott Taylor: Bye guys.
     Bill Pulver: Later Scott!
     John Eagan/VR: I've read that John Walker of Autodesk has been quite 
             | enthusiastic about
             | VR
             | bye Scott
     Scott Taylor: [puuf]
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Later sct
     John Eagan/VR: however, he supposedly has now left
     Mike Donohue Jr.: He had much to do with cyberspace design...(I think)
     Bill Pulver: Well, guess I'll go see whats in my mailbox here. See ya all 
             | next time.
             | Bye ---
     John Eagan/VR: night Bill!
             | anything else you'd like to talk about,Mike?
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Not really, I just want to keep as informed as 
             | possible.  I really see
             | VR taking off soon and want to be involved somehow. hopefully 
             | from an
             | artistic standpoint
     John Eagan/VR: hello,Dr.Sacks
     Dr. Ed Sacks: Hello
     John Eagan/VR: glad you could join us
     Dr. Ed Sacks: Thank you. This is my first forum
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Hey Dr. 
     John Eagan/VR: this is the first VR section conference
             | first forum? do you mean you're new to Compuserve?
     Dr. Ed Sacks: No. Not at all. This is the first forum I have attempted.
     John Eagan/VR: oh,do you mean conference?
     Dr. Ed Sacks: Yes. This seems to be going in circles. Must go now! Thanks.
     John Eagan/VR: I guess he was just curious...
     Mike Donohue Jr.: Well, I think I am going to call it a night.  I will 
             | send you a message
             | with the name of that CD. 
     John Eagan/VR: thanks for stopping by, we'll be here each sunday at 9pm 
             | EST
     Mike Donohue Jr.: later...
     John Eagan/VR: goodnight
