From: hex@unseen.ac.am 
  
 On 28/08/2025 00:39, JNugent wrote: 
 > On 26/08/2025 06:58 PM, Norman Wells wrote: 
 >> On 26/08/2025 16:17, JNugent wrote: 
 >>> On 26/08/2025 10:34 AM, Norman Wells wrote: 
  
 >>>>> How do you say you know that the flag doesn't belong to the local 
 >>>>> authority? 
 >> 
 >>>> You really don't have to be very bright to have a very good idea. 
 >> 
 >>> Is "a very good idea" enough? 
 >>> Would it suffice as a defence against a Theft or Criminal Damage charge? 
 >> 
 >> That's a decision for the court of course, but I think so. 
 > 
 > But you cannot know. 
  
 You can know well enough.  It's not hard. 
 >> The 
 >> prosecution would have to show that it belonged to someone and their 
 >> case would fail if it it couldn't establish that it belonged to the 
 >> Council, because then the defence applies that no reasonable enquiries 
 >> could be made to discover who does own it, if anyone. 
 > 
 > But... why would you WANT to remove )and presumable destrot or othewise 
 > dispse of) flags displayed on streetlamps and other street furniture? 
  
 'Why' is irrelevant.  People do.  The question is whether what they do 
 is legal. 
  
 > Would it be just in order to be contrary? 
 > 
 >>>>>> Were the local authority to appropriate it honestly, having regard to 
 >>>>>> Section 2 of the Theft Act, it would then become the authority's 
 >>>>>> property, just as it would become yours if you appropriated it. 
 >>>>>> Until 
 >>>>>> such appropriation, however, it remains the property of whoever 
 >>>>>> owned it before. 
 >> 
 >>>>> How do you know it wasn't theirs all along? 
 >> 
 >>>> Perhaps because I have a modicum of intelligence. 
 >> 
 >>> Or at least, a "very good idea"? 
 >> 
 >> We rely on our judgement every day of our lives. 
 > 
 > Only up to a point. 
  
 That point being knowing well enough. 
 >>>>> Or alternatively, that the council hasn't given permission for the 
 >>>>> display? 
 >> 
 >>>> Why do you think it has any power either to allow or forbid it? 
 >> 
 >>> See above. 
 >> 
 >> It only has any rights over it if it actually does own the flag. 
 > 
 > Are all flags owned by councils? 
  
 Of course not. 
 >>>>> Ringing the council would be a reasonable step. 
 >> 
 >>>> Not if it doesn't have any authority over it. 
 > 
 > How could you know that without making reasonable enquiries? 
 > 
 >>> A passer by does not have that knowledge, hence the necessity of 
 >>> contacting the council. 
 >> 
 >> I'm commenting as a passer-by actually, and I'm saying it's highly 
 >> unlikely to have any such authority. 
 > 
 > But HOW do you say you know that? 
  
 Because an odd flag roughly attached to a lamp post and probably 
 supporting some non-establishment cause does not accord with normal 
 local authority practice in my experience. 
  
 >>> I really cannot believe that you advocate theft or criminal damage of 
 >>> the property of others. But it's what you are doing. 
 >> 
 >> I've told you why it wouldn't be theft.€€ What criminal damage are you 
 >> now alleging?€€ Of what, how, and who by? 
 > 
 > Of the flags or their moorings. 
  
 Again, criminal damage to be such has to be to property belonging to 
 another, just as theft has to be.  If that cannot be established, there 
 is no case. 
  
 Anyway, there may well be no discernible damage. 
  
 >>> FTAOD, I wpuld never dream of appropriating any street decoration, 
 >>> flag or any other symbol. Not even a Hamas flag. I would leave it to 
 >>> the authorities responsible (to the extent that anyone has that 
 >>> responsibility). 
 >> 
 >> What's that got to do with whether it's legal to remove it, whether you 
 >> would or not?€€ That's what we were discussing. 
 > 
 > It's just a "very good idea" I have, coupled with my knowledge that I 
 > cannot possibly know who the owner is, whether or not it is sited with 
 > any necessary permissions and what the official stance of the local 
 > authority might be. 
 > 
 > I would make no assumptions. 
  
 You cannot possibly know if someone on a roundabout where you have 
 precedence is nevertheless going to pull out in front of you.  You 
 *have* to act on the assumption that he won't, as we all do. 
  
 --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 
  * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)