XPost: uk.radio.amateur, uk.politics.misc, uk.d-i-y 
 From: steve@walker-family.me.uk 
  
 On 14/10/2019 14:27, The Todal wrote: 
 > On 14/10/2019 13:52, Incubus wrote: 
 >> On 2019-10-14, The Natural Philosopher  wrote: 
 >>> On 14/10/2019 11:36, Incubus wrote: 
 >>>> On 2019-10-14, The Todal  wrote: 
 >>>>> On 14/10/2019 10:54, Incubus wrote: 
 >>>>>> On 2019-10-13, nightjar  wrote: 
 >>>>>>> On 13/10/2019 16:43, tim... wrote: 
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> "nightjar"  wrote in message 
 >>>>>>>> news:YMCdnZDnRYaYlT7AnZ2dnUU78I_NnZ2d@giganews.com... 
 >>>>>>> ... 
 >>>>>>>>> Of greater influence are probably dissatisfaction with the mess 
 >>>>>>>>> that 
 >>>>>>>>> the Brexiteers have made of the process so far 
 >>>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>>> ITYF it was a Remainer who made a mess of the process 
 >>>>>>> 
 >>>>>>> Mrs May achieved a reasonable deal that the EU could live with. 
 >>>>>>> It was 
 >>>>>>> the extreme Brexiteers who stopped that deal getting through 
 >>>>>>> parliament. 
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>>> The deal was an absolute turd but you will find that Remainers in 
 >>>>>> Parliament 
 >>>>>> also voted it down. 
 >>>>>> 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> The deal was actually an excellent one, and it is still the only 
 >>>>> alternative to a no-deal and there's certainly a chance that MPs will 
 >>>>> approve it now they realise that it's this deal or no deal. 
 >>>> 
 >>>> If you think the deal was excellent then you haven't understood it. 
 >>>> 
 >>> Or alternatively he realises it is even better than being in the EU, for 
 >>> the EU, and hates Britain enough to think that is good. 
 >>> 
 >>>>> So "absolute turd"? Will you feel betrayed? Will you march on the 
 >>>>> streets to demand that Boris resigns, after we leave the EU with 
 >>>>> Theresa 
 >>>>> May's deal? 
 >>>>> 
 >>>>> Honestly? 
 >>>> 
 >>>> It depends on what is renegotiated.€€ The most dangerous aspect was the 
 >>>> "backstop". 
 >>>> 
 >>> The backstop meant 'you can never leave' 
 >> 
 >> You have read it and understood it.€€ As you said, either Todal hasn't 
 >> or he 
 >> has and wants the EU to remain as overlords for perpetuity. 
 >> 
 > 
 > Neither of you has understood it. The backstop means that once you have 
 > devised a technological solution to regulating the border without having 
 > a hard border, the backstop will become irrelevant and the break from 
 > the EU will be complete. 
  
 Yes. Except that the decision on whether the solution is good enough is 
 entirely down to the EU. They *could* hold the UK in forever if they 
 wanted to. 
  
 > Boris claims that he already has a technological solution. But he hasn't. 
 > 
 > Your strong dislike of the backstop is founded on paranoid suspicion 
 > that the EU wants to keep us in their union forever. But as I said, we 
 > do always have the option in the future of disregarding the withdrawal 
 > agreement and accepting the consequences. And - in case you were worried 
 > - the consequences will not involve the Luftwaffe bombing London. 
  
 There is no right to leave the agreement unilaterally (unlike every 
 other treaty) and nowhere to appeal to. All other treaties contain an 
 exit mechanism (such as article 50). Signing up to the backstop removes 
 that safety net. 
  
 SteveW 
  
 --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 
  * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)