XPost: uk.politics.misc, uk.d-i-y, uk.radio.amateur
From: gtyr@gmail.com
"JNugent" wrote in message
news:h0gko1Fglo0U1@mid.individual.net...
> On 13/10/2019 02:25, ZakJames wrote:
>>
>>
>> "JNugent" wrote in message
>> news:h0f9f4F86o7U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> On 12/10/2019 23:47, ZakJames wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "JNugent" wrote in message
>>>> news:h0f0boF6deiU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> On 12/10/2019 16:35, tim... wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
>>>>>> news:5801d4258edave@davenoise.co.uk...
>>>>>>> In article ,
>>>>>>> Cursitor Doom wrote:
>>>>>>>> I still have a legitimate interest, mate. And if there's another
>>>>>>>> Referendum I'll be voting in it again, same as before, just like
>>>>>>>> everyone else who voted Leave - plus not a few former Remainers
>>>>>>>> who've
>>>>>>>> seen the light over the last 3 years.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oddly, most the polls seem to show the opposite has happened.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> very marginally
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and to less than the extent that Remain was in the lead before the
>>>>>> last vote
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and you know what campaigning did to that lead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Wonder what the average UK voter feels about those who have fled the
>>>>>>> country to avoid paying taxes being allowed to vote?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I for one think that they've got a bloody cheek complaining about
>>>>>> being disenfranchised - they chose to be disenfranchised.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's not as straightforward as some people seem to think.
>>>>>
>>>>> An ex-pat Brit living in (say) Spain might have a vote in local
>>>>> elections in their area of residence, but unless they take pout
>>>>> Spanish citizenship they won't be allowed to vote in Spain's
>>>>> parliamantary elections (and quite right too).
>>>>
>>>>> But unless they're allowed to vote in UK Parliamentary elections - for
>>>>> life - they are disenfranchised from having any say in the government
>>>>> of anywhere. And that cannot be right. They are not second-class
>>>>> people who should have fewer rights than others.
>>>>
>>>> That€€€s always been the case with those who choose not
>>>> to take up citizenship in the place they choose to move
>>>> to. They are in fact second class people by that choice
>>>> and rightly so imo.
>>>
>>> "That's always been the case".
>>
>>> But it shouldn't be.
>>
>> That€€€s very arguable.
>>
>>> There is no case to be made for disenfranchising anyone.
>>
>> There is for those who choose to be in a particular country
>> for a while but who have no intention of staying there forever.
>> Why should those who choose to move to say Spain for the
>> lower prices and better weather have any say on how that
>> country is run ? Let alone on more important issues like
>> whether the Basque separatists should be allowed to have
>> their own country or be part of the EU ?
>>
>>> What is the principled difference between a UK citizen who works abroad
>>> (eg, a Foreign Office employee) and a UK citizen who retires abroad?
>>
>> Nothing with regard to their right to vote in the UK is concerned
>> unless they never plan to return to the UK again. But neither should
>> have any say in how the country they are working in or have retired
>> to does things either imo. Both are free to decide if how that country
>> does things is to their liking, but not free to vote on any changes
>> that they would like to see there.
> That's your opinion.
That€€€s why I said imo.
> The idea of a tax-paying, law-abiding, citizen who isn't allowed to vote
> anywhere in the world
That€€€s hardly ever the case, All modern first and
most second world countrys allow their citizens
to vote when they are out of their country.
> must surely be anathema to anyone correctly considering the situation.
The actual situation is that they can still
vote in their native country unless they
are in a foreign jail in the case of some
countrys that don€€€t allow felons to vote.
> Are you sure you aren't just fearful of how most of them would vote?
Quite sure. Most who are out of their country don€€€t
bother to vote because more effort is required to do that.
>> I don€€€t even agree with say poms who choose to migrate to somewhere
>> like Australia or NZ being able to proclaim that those places should do
>> things the way the UK does things benefits or politics wise either.
> Neither do I. And that has [precisely nothing whatever to do with the
> issue of whether they should be denied a vote.
They arent in fact denied a vote at all. They are
free to vote in UK elections for at least 15 years,
>> They should decide if they like the way things are done before they
>> migrate to another country, not try to change them after they have
>> migrated.
> Quite so, though of course, it has nothing to do with the topic.
Wrong.
>>>>> Because UK Parliamentary representation is so tied to local geography,
>>>>> ex-pats need to be either (a) limited to a vote as though still living
>>>>> at their last UK address (which they might even still own), or (b)
>>>>> placed within a new non-geographical constituency for British citizens
>>>>> not currently resident in the UK. There would probably have to be a
>>>>> multiplicity of those because there are millions of ex-pats. These
>>>>> constituencies could even be based on broad regions of the UK, each
>>>>> with an electorate size of the target average size as aimed for by the
>>>>> Boundary Commission and equivalents.
>>>>
>>>> I did notice that Italians emigrants are allowed to vote in Italian
>>>> elections.
>>>> Not sure what happens about which constituency they get to vote in.
>>
>>> Perhaps we (the UK) should make enquiries.
>>
>> There isnt likely to be any very satisfactory way of doing that.
>> Even say being allowed to vote in the constituency that they
>> had previously lived in doesn€€€t make a lot of sense given
>> that as migrants they clearly chose to leave there and with
>> such tiny constituencies as the UK has, it could just have
>> been where there happened to be an affordable place to
>> buy or rent that they happened to find appealing etc or
>> a job that happened to have a vacancy at the time.
>
> That's a view and it has some legitimacy.
>
> What has no legitimacy at all is a view that such people should be denied
> a parliamantary vote altogether,
None of them are. They are free to get naturalised
in the country they choose to migrate to, but arent
free to vote in a country they choose to work in for
a while, or choose to retire to because its cheaper
to live there or because the weather is much better
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* Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)
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