XPost: uk.politics.misc, uk.d-i-y, uk.radio.amateur 
 From: pamela.uklegal@gmail.com 
  
 On 23:45  13 Oct 2019, roger@hayter.org (Roger Hayter) wrote: 
  
 > Pamela  wrote: 
 > 
 >> On 19:07  13 Oct 2019, Norman Wells  wrote: 
 >> 
 >> > On 13/10/2019 17:16, Pamela wrote: 
 >> >> On 13:49  13 Oct 2019, "Dave Plowman (News)"  
 >> >> wrote: 
 >> >> 
 >> >>> In article <0001HW.23533798000B6E74700000BBC2EF@news.giganews.com>, 
 >> >>>     Keema's Nan  wrote: 
 >> >>>>> I see your mistake. You think the referendum was a football match 
 >> >>>>> with winner takes all. In fact, the vote was more or less evenly 
 >> >>>>> split and MPs will take that into account. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> Ok, but not quite evenly split though, was it? 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> No. It was approximately 1/3rd. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>>> 
 >> >>>>> 
 >> >>>>> A second referendum will serve to show Parliament if the original 
 >> >>>>> split has been preserved after voters have seen what Brexit 
 >> >>>>> really looks like. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> No one can see what Brexit looks like until they have experienced 
 >> >>>> it. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> Which could be too late for many jobs based on free trade with the 
 >> >>> EU. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> All we have, is what bullshitters tell us Brexit will be like. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> I certainly remember being told how easy it would be to get a new 
 >> >>> deal with the EU giving us all we wanted. Since they need us more 
 >> >>> than we need them. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>>> If we are allowed a few years of Brexit and then have a referendum 
 >> >>>> based on 'stay out' or 're-join', that would be sensible. But 
 >> >>>> common sense is what the remain-filled UK establishment do not 
 >> >>>> possess. 
 >> >>> 
 >> >>> The nest few years will be spend sorting out just what sort of deal 
 >> >>> we end up with in detail. Any agreement now is simply a starting 
 >> >>> point. And if we leave without one, those negotiations will simply 
 >> >>> take longer. A lot longer. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> How true. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> In fact, for many leavers, Brexit has become an end it itself. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> Brexit serves no useful purpose.  However, fanatical leavers have 
 >> >> nailed their colours to its mast and now insist we leave to satisfy 
 >> >> their sense of pride. 
 >> >> 
 >> >> Boris's "Let's get Brexit done" is based on the totally false 
 >> >> premise that it will be over when we leave. 
 >> > 
 >> > It's actually drawing a line that will enable discussions on trade, 
 >> > which you seem concerned about, actually to start.  We haven't had 
 >> > *any* so far.  We can't until we have left. 
 >> 
 >> What a mess. 
 > 
 > I don't think that particular part of it is a mess at all. International 
 > discussions and hugely disruptive changes of status are always going to 
 > take a long time. 
  
 The agreements required after Brexit are exceptional by any standards and 
 the requirement for a quick resolution is more pressing than usual in such 
 negotiations. 
  
 > And it seems obvious to me that the EU cannot 
 > negotiate new trade terms with us until we have actually left; after 
 > all, it is now clear to everyone, 
  
 The fact it's obvious doesn't make it desirable nor acceptable.  It's a 
 mess because Boris has created an expectation that we can "Get Brexit 
 done" by simply leaving on the 31st and then letting everything else flow 
 effortlessly afterwards.  Ha ha.  Leaving is just a formality compared to 
 the real difficulties which start then. 
  
 > and probably was always obvious to 
 > the EU officials, that unitil we actually leave we could withdraw our 
 > Article 50 notification at a ny time.  So all the May deal was is a 
 > transitional arrangement while we negotiate.   That should be no 
 > problem, no reasonable person could have thought that it could have been 
 > done quicker without unnecessary disruption. 
 > 
 > The real problem with the May deal is not the delay, or even the content 
 > of the transitional arrangements, it is what to do about Ireland. 
 > Perhaps this is our fault for allowing the Unionist population to 
 > dictate partition in 1923.  But is a real mutual problem for the EU and 
 > us because of Brexit.   And blaming the EU for it is misdirected. 
  
 The Irish border problem was mentioned in the referendum campaign.  What a 
 pity a tentative solution wasn't proposed then rather than 3.5 years 
 later.  Even now we do not have an agreed solution.  And we are supposed 
 to be leaving on the 31st.  What a mess. 
  
 --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 
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