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 I think we tended to think "well maybe this just began" a short time 
 before. This has been growing a long time, and what we've got to do as I 
 say in every single area, but particularly in the Middle East, is get 
 behind the change-makers in the region, the people who want to, to create a 
 different type of future for people, who want prosperity and economic 
 development and a move towards democracy. 
  
 And in fact just mentioning Osama Bin Laden there, also reminds one of the 
 other giant villain who's been found guilty, who was captured and found 
 guilty, Saddam Hussein. Would you in fact prefer a living Saddam Hussein 
 who might be a rallying cry for future supporters, or a dead Saddam who 
 might become a martyr? 
  
 Look, we've got a position as the government and I as an individual against 
 the death penalty and, and that applies in no matter what circumstances. 
 But this is a decision the Iraqis have got to take, and I think this has 
 moved beyond Saddam as a figurehead or not. 
  
 The truth is in the end there's something far more fundamental at stake 
 here, which is can Iraq become a democracy in which people of different 
 parts of the Muslim faith live together, freely, and that is the only way 
 people are going to make progress in Iraq, that is what the majority of 
 people want, the question is how do we help them get there? 
  
 And you know I think we've got to send a very clear message across the 
 whole of the Middle East, that one: there is a strategy that we have for 
 the whole of the region in which we want to work in partnership with 
 moderate elements. And, secondly, that we are going to stick with it, and 
 make sure that for the foreseeable future in so far as we can help this 
 situation, we should be there and help it. 
  
 Prime Minister, there's been some action this week on Darfur, people have 
 been saying that really China was the most important power around Darfur, 
 but do you think there's any hope of real progress now? 
  
 I think there's hope of progress and Koffi Annan, the secretary-general of 
 the United Nations, has done a good job. But I mean I, the basic thing is 
 to get this Africa Union, United Nations Force into Darfur to keep aside 
 those who are engaged in violence there and then to get a proper peace 
 process underway, otherwise we end up with a situation where again. 
  
 You know, hundreds and thousands of people die or are displaced, extremism 
 grows, and yet another conflict can become something upon which these 
 extreme elements gain traction, and that's what we've got to stop. 
 And what is interesting now is right across Africa, the more extreme 
 elements are trying to gain a foothold in order to create conflict and 
 division and sectarianism. 
  
 And the War on Terror, I mean will last a generation, do you think we'll 
 still have troops in this part of the world in a generation? 
  
 It's not gonna be the same as it is now at all, and no I think there will 
 be a situation in Iraq particularly where the Iraqi government wants as 
 quickly as possible to take responsibility for its own security. 
  
 But on the other hand I think in terms of our partnership with economic 
 development, our support for diplomatic efforts, for example to bring peace 
 in Israel-Palestine, to make sure that Lebanon is properly secured to give 
 a, a different future for the region, I think that is a partnership that 
 needs to last a generation because I think it will take that long. 
  
 It's clear how passionate you, you've always been clear how passionate you 
 are about foreign affairs and so on. If the next prime minister was say 
 Gordon Brown, and if he was to ask you if you would continue to serve as 
 foreign secretary because you're so good at it, what would you say? 
  
 No, I think when you step down as prime minister you step down. Part of 
 modern politics is, is foreign affairs is no, no longer almost like foreign 
 affairs. 
  
 I mean we are affected in Britain today by an extremism that didn't begin 
 in this country has come in from outside, and its solution is found 
 outside, and so in a strange way what I've seen in my ten years as prime 
 minister is the situation in which you move from a domestic affairs and 
 foreign affairs being kind of two different compartments to one in which, 
 really the domestic and the foreign intermingle. 
  
 Absolutely. When you step down, what about Cherie, would she be tempted to 
 do a Hilary Clinton do you think? 
  
 No!  I mean that's a question for her, but I think no. It's been a 
 tremendous privilege and honour to do the job here but I think, you know, 
 when you move on you move on. 
  
 I think however there's and I've learnt it's not very sensible for me to 
 talk about what I may or may not do afterwards but I think the thing that 
 does make a real difference today is when you look round the world and you 
 can see this in countries like ours, but also out in the Middle East 
 region. 
  
 The difference today, the fundamental political difference is less to do 
 with the traditional, Left, Right politics, as it is, because most people 
 know what makes an effective economy today and so on. 
  
 It is to do with whether countries are open, whether they're tolerant, 
 whether they embrace people of different views and different faiths, or 
 whether they are closed societies, and I think the future, this is not a 
 Western position, I think the future for our world is in countries opening 
 up to the outside world. 
  
 So, summing up, you've got anything obviously from one day to eight months 
 to go, that's the sort of maximum, going back to what you said about the 
 TUC Congress, what would you most like to achieve in that time? A lot of 
 the aims for the Middle East will obviously take many years longer, but, 
 but what would you most like to achieve in the remaining months? 
  
 Well, I think apart from Iraq and Afghanistan where it's important to 
 support the process of democracy, the most important thing for me is 
 progress in Israel and Palestine. 
  
 That is the thing I believe would have ... not just greater practical 
 significance most of all obviously for people in Israel and Palestine, but 
 greater symbolic importance, nothing would have a greater symbolic 
 importance than that. 
  
 It would send a signal to the whole of the world that this was not a battle 
 between Westerners or Christians and Muslims, but it was a battle between 
 all those who believe in tolerance, in living together in harmony in a 
 non-sectarian future against those who want to divide us. 
  
 One of the problems there though is, is the perception that you and America 
 are not unbiased in this situation. 
  
 Of course,absolutely. 
  
 That everyone in the Arab world thinks that you are on the side of Israel 
 and somehow that's got to be dispelled. 
  
 Yeah, but you know what would help dispel it? If people would understand 
 that I am a strong supporter of Israel, I believe that Israel should have 
 the right to exist, right. 
  
 But I also believe that we need a Palestinian state, an independent viable 
 democratic Palestinian state living alongside Israel. 
  
 Now the only way you're going to get there is not if we suddenly start 
 distancing ourselves from Israel because Israel's got to be part of this 
 solution, the only way we're going to get there, as we tried to do here in 
 respect of Northern Ireland, is to bring people together, to set out a 
 common way forward and then work at it day in, day out until we get there. 
 The interesting thing about the Middle East at the moment, if you see King 
  
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