XPost: calgary.general, can.general, tor.general 
 XPost: chi.general, wash.general 
 From: yac@nospam.com 
  
 > bullshit.  this is not some form of subtle anti-Semitism.  people in the 
 > west are wrapped up in the Israeli conflict because we a) helped to create 
 > it  b) help Israel  c)  realize the Palestinian/israeli conflict has at 
 > least a little something to do with anti-western sentiment among 
 terrorists. 
  
 You are correct about general criticism of Israel - often it's legitimate. 
 You often hear Jews in Israel (Labor, Meretz supports) say the same thing. 
 However, sometimes it is anti-Semitic, like when people like Veranda think 
 calling someone a Zionist is the worst insult in the world, but does not 
 even understand what it means.  Or when people blame Israel for everything. 
 Both sides fucked up. 
  
 > these things affect/effect us in the west.  stop whining about 
 > anti-Semitism.  half the time the Jews scream anti-Semitism, I'm left 
 > scratching my head wondering 'where?'.  both sides in that conflict have 
 > done horrible things.  neither is 100% right.  to say that Palestinians 
 > could pick themselves up from their current situation belies two things: 
  
 But they can.  Their leaders have to make a massive effort to stop 
 terrorism, and then the world will support them, Israel will support them, 
 and they will get their own State.  Remember at one point 80% of Israeli 
 Jews supported a Palestinians State.  Again, I am not blaming the PA for not 
 being able to stop every attack - there is no way they can even with 100% 
 effort.  I am blaming them for support terrorism and delegimazing their 
 cause which I still support.  Terror was a massive mistake. 
  
  
 > you don't understand the ugly nature of socio-economics when a financial 
 > power delineated by race/colour sits beside a financial cesspool.  the 
 > Palestinians are uneducated and poor and embittered. 
  
 Actually, they are pretty well educated for the most part and their economy 
 was starting to do quite well before the war started. They are the same race 
 (Semitic) and colour - different religion. Also, most of the terrorist 
 leaders are university educated and relatively well off.  The terrorists 
 involved in 9/11 were also not poor or uneducated. 
  
 Nonetheless, they are nowhere near as well off as Israel, and if they stop 
 the suicide bombs and mortars, I wish them luck. 
  
 > theirs is a David and 
 > goliath story, the story that all of Hollywood casts its heroes from - 
 > rising up against their oppressor. 
  
 That is crap.  The Palestinians have mortars, bombs, guns, mines, and a lot 
 of advanced weaponry and training.  The press may like photos of a 13 year 
 old throwing a rock at a tank, but the reality is totally different.  There 
 have been efforts to blow up gas-depots, buildings, and many successful 
 large scale attacks.  Look at one of the restaurants or buses after an 
 attack - hardly a David and Goliath image. 
  
  
 >i can understand how they are constantly 
 > able to bring up 'heroes' who are willing to do atrocious things for their 
 > 'cause'. 
  
 I could have understood it (not supported it) before Oslo, but once Israel 
 came around to realizing they can't keep the West Bank and Gaza, and the 
 world was behind the Palestinians and their cause, the atrocities stopped 
 making sense.  They were told they would get what the State they wanted if 
 they stopped the terror, but did not.  They want the right of Palestinian 
 refuges to be able to move to Palestine or Israel proper.  Israel refused - 
 if there is a Palestinian State, that's where Palestinians should move to. 
 If they were able to move to Israel, there there would be two Palestinians 
 States and no Israel.  Not very reasonable. And Hamas is not just fighting 
 for one or two Palestinian States - they want to destroy Israel. 
  
 >it is a mythos that has been around for millennia.  but Israel 
 > won't set about to raise the standards of living (including education) of 
 > the Palestinians, because a) it would put more money in their pockets 
 which 
 > could lead to more lethal attacks against Israel, 
  
 Yet look at the transfer of funds from Israel to the PA before the war 
 started.  Look at the funds that come in from the EU.  There was a huge 
 effort to raise the standard of living and the education.  Huge industrial 
 areas were built - many which closed after the workers blew up their bosses. 
  
 >and b)  racism.  it's a 
 > difficult position to be in, and of course, if a solution was able to be 
 > found that would be equally agreeable to both sides, it would have been 
 done 
 > by now.  the problem is, as i see it, the Israeli's feel they have the 
 most 
 > to lose, and in many respects, they do. 
  
 Have you been there?  Israel seems to still be getting on with life - going 
 to the beaches, building, going out.  It's a very vibrant country.  Gaza is 
 a total shit hole.  The Palistinians have by far the most to loose 
  
 >the notion of compromise means that 
 > both sides are to be equally unhappy with the result.  that way, no one 
 got 
 > robbed in the deal.  but Israel holds more power and doesn't want to 
 > acquiesse. 
  
 But Israel started Olso, made many huge concessions, pulled out of most of 
 the major urban areas.  Before schedualed major pullouts, there were major 
 attacks, so they did not get everything which was promised, but I don't 
 blame Israel.  Hamas & Co. fucked it up for both sides. 
  
  
 > to do so would not be in fitting with their status, and it would 
 > also mean that they would be giving in to terrorism, essentially, which is 
 > always a dangerous thing to do.  there is no answer.  someone has to 
 decide 
 > when the violence will stop, and seeing as israel is the military power, 
 the 
 > financial power, they have to be the ones to do it. 
  
 Israel can not stop it.  You think they should just let the sucicde bombers 
 walk into cities? let the bomb factories build bombs?  Israel has been 
 trying to stop it.  Yet, if there are daily attempts to blow up Israels, 
 then they have to defend themselves.  No one can stop it 100%, but the PA 
 can make a huge reduction in the number of attacks if they made the effort, 
 which they have not. 
  
 >the palestinians 
 > certainly won't, what have they go to lose?  someday someone in israel is 
 > going to say 'enough'.  whatever it takes to let my people live in peace, 
 > let's make it happen.  let them have their demands.  fuck it. 
  
 Which is what started the Olso process.  Israel will never allow themselves 
 to be destroyed though. 
  
 >it's not like 
 > israel is going to lose its wealth, status, power, control.  the seeds of 
 > peace must be sown now if there is ever to be peace.  they can never root 
 > out the terrorists unless they are willing to sterilize all the 
 > palestinians. 
  
 Again, the problem was not as much with the terror as with the fact that 
 Arafat supported it.  On CNN he might say he condemeed it, but then he would 
  
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