XPost: alt.beer 
 From: see.headers@figureitout.com 
  
 "NYC XYZ"  wrote in message 
 news:1156436857.665423.269030@75g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... 
  
 > Right.  Sorry my relaxed mood threw off your parser: I'd meant was 
 > "[NORTH AND] northwestern European places like the British Isles, 
 > Scandanavia, [AS WELL AS] Central Europe...." 
  
 Then you may want to try writing what you mean. You'll find it does wonders 
 for people understanding what you're saying. 
  
 Not to mention, the distinction makes no sense, as the biggest levels of 
 alcohol consumption and drunkennes are in eastern Europe, and outside of the 
 weird geography you've created. 
  
 > Depends on what "level" you want to compare and contrast.  At an 
 > everday level, the skin on your nose appears the same as the skin on 
 > your fingertips, but at another it isn't.  Right.  But in speaking of 
 > "drinking cultures" as opposed to "eating cultures" I can ignore the 
 > million-and-one details which do not bear on my point. 
  
 You may want to go back to that writing what you mean thing, because I have 
 no idea what the fuck you're on about. 
  
 Of course, given your pattern in this thread, I find the last sentence 
 telling. "Damn it all to hell if there are a million and one points that 
 don't support my preconceived notion; I'm going to stick to the ones that 
 back me up!" 
  
 Look up the term "confirmation bias." You may learn something. 
  
 > > Beer cultures vary widely from country to country, and even within 
 > > countries. The beer culture in D€sseldorf and Cologne are quite 
 > > different 
 > > than in the rest of Germany, and even Munich's a bit unique within 
 > > Bavaria. 
  
 > Hmm, how so? 
  
 I'm not saying this to be flip or to try to get into a travel dick-wagging 
 contest: You really have to spend time in the various locations to really 
 get a feel for it, and explanation isn't going to do a lot. It would be a 
 bit like explaining to an outsider how bar culture is different in San 
 Francisco v. New York. 
  
 But there are some obvious markers. Cologne and D'dorf have their own unique 
 styles of beer that are not found elsewhere in the country, and they're 
 served very differently (small-pour glasses that never stop appearing on 
 your table until you put a beer mat over the top of your glass to signal the 
 server to stop). The beer halls in those cities have a different atmosphere 
 than the Bavarian ones. Munich largely has its own styles too, although they 
 are emulated through much of the south and into Austria and Switzerland. 
 M€ncheners are very festive and collegial and often involve everyone around 
 them in their revelry, whereas in the north they are accomodating but don't 
 have quite the communal feel. 
  
 That's off the top of my head, and it gets nowhere close to really capturing 
 the differences. As I said, try explaining something like how Kansas and 
 Alabama are different to someone who's not really spent time in the States, 
 and you'll get a feel for what I'm trying to do here. 
  
 > > The English pub is 
 > > quite different from the Bavarian beer hall, and neither are remotely 
 > > like 
 > > the Dutch and Flemish cafe. Etc. 
  
 > Yes -- but they are all drinking cultures, civilizations noted for 
 > their drink and not their cuisine. 
  
 Flanders is part of Belgium. You need to do some research on Belgium before 
 making that statement. 
  
 > > I think you're using American conceptions of beer v. wine to form your 
 > > opinions of European countries and the drinks that are often associated 
 > > with 
 > > them. 
  
 > It's true, I am -- but since I speak of the drinking culture of the 
 > West in general, I don't think I compromise my point by such a 
 > grouping. 
  
 Well, you do. The fact that you're unwilling to see that further compromises 
 it. 
  
 Europeans do not view beer and wine in the same way Americans do. They are 
 more the product of local tradition and specialty than any sort of idea of 
 superiority or inferiority, or relative levels of sophistication. When I 
 lived in Germany, very few of my friends there did not know wine as well as 
 beer: do to the beer parochialism of Germany, it can be argued they knew 
 wine better than they knew beer. I've run into many Italians and French who 
 are quite enthusiastic fans of beer. 
  
 The respective drinks are more popular in their home countries because 
 that's what people grew up with and that's what each country is best suited 
 for producing. But there is plenty of cross-polination and appreciation. 
  
  
 > > "Getting wasted" in many ways seems to be a bit of an Anglo thing: in 
 > > broad strokes, Americans are more prone to binge drinking than, say, the 
 > > Germans, and there's a reason that the English themselves refer to "The 
 > > English Disease." And yet at the same time, the vodka-oriented Slavic 
 > > countries have no shortage of people "getting wasted." In contrast, 
 > > while 
 > > beer halls are prevelant in Munich, outside of Oktoberfest and the like, 
 > > you 
 > > don't see many drunk people wandering the streets. And when you do, it 
 > > tends 
 > > to be young men under the age of 30 - much like here in the U.S. 
  
 > Quite right, I'm sure -- but, really, it's like I want to compare the 
 > trunk of an elephant to a snake, and you want to say how its skin is 
 > different than that from a snake's, as well its color, etc. 
  
 Again, try going back to that saying what you mean thing. Your points are 
 having a hard enough time being understood by several people when you're 
 being relatively forthright; your attempts at being clever are neither that 
 no cogent. 
  
 And if you were paying attention, instead of being so devoted to holding to 
 your position no matter what, I'm partially supporting your original 
 contention in the above passage. But since I'm partially contradicting it, I 
 suppose that's all you're latching on to. 
  
  
 > I'm 
 > contrasting the drinking culture of Europe with the eating culture of 
 > Asia, and you want to point out that drinking patterns vary in Europe. 
  
 No, you're not. At least not at the start. To quote your own post: 
  
 "I should clarify: what I'd had in mind was northwestern European places 
 like the British Isles, Scandanavia, and Central Europe...and I was 
 thinking mainly of "beer culture," not "wine culture."  I seems that 
 "getting wasted" is a part of beer culture, whereas wine culture is 
 more refined...? 
  
 My conception of French and Italian alcohol consumption is that they're 
 not drunkards the way Irish or Germans are...seems the Mediterranean 
 folks drink with their food, as opposed to have drinks for food." 
  
 Nary a mention of anything outside of Europe in there. 
  
 > Very interesting facts, but not a rebuttal, if that was your intent. 
  
 The intent was to point out to you that you've got a half-baked notion that 
 needs more time in the oven and some actual fact and experience, rather than 
 idle speculation. But it's apparent from throughout the thread that you're 
  
 [continued in next message] 
  
 --- SoupGate-Win32 v1.05 
  * Origin: you cannot sedate... all the things you hate (1:229/2)